wyatt Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I had my SGC without a cab. soon as I notified WMP they came out and checked I had one. Never a concern to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 Yes there is NO GUN but how do the police know as soon as they give him a cert he's not going to go out and buy a gun. Just because he says he's NOT doesn't mean he isn't, the police don't have the resources to visit his property every night to check do they. If the police believed what everybody said to them what sort of world would we live in. It's not an impossible situation that someone could say to their FEO I'm not buying/ keeping any guns here, I just want a cert to borrow a mates and buy carts, then go out and buy a gun, keep it under his bed, he gets burgled and the FEO gets screwed for granting the cert. You must understand they have to edge on the side of cation. Just for clarification the points I've raised are just my opinion so please don't start quoting me saying 'it's not law'. My comments are not intended to irritate you or cause an argument, I'm just expressing my opinion as a neutral looking on from the outside. ATB 425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 On 24/02/2014 at 22:35, Browning 425 clay hunter said: Yes there is NO GUN but how do the police know as soon as they give him a cert he's not going to go out and buy a gun. Just because he says he's NOT doesn't mean he isn't, the police don't have the resources to visit his property every night to check do they. If the police believed what everybody said to them what sort of world would we live in. It's not an impossible situation that someone could say to their FEO I'm not buying/ keeping any guns here, I just want a cert to borrow a mates and buy carts, then go out and buy a gun, keep it under his bed, he gets burgled and the FEO gets screwed for granting the cert. You must understand they have to edge on the side of cation. Just for clarification the points I've raised are just my opinion so please don't start quoting me saying 'it's not law'. My comments are not intended to irritate you or cause an argument, I'm just expressing my opinion as a neutral looking on from the outside. ATB 425 And nothing stopping someone with a cabinet putting the gun under the bed either................ Legal requirement to notify police of acquisition or disposal by both parties, Legal requirement to hold a cert to borrow a shotgun (from someone other than the occupier) on land that doesn't have an 11(6) exemption So by actually trying to stay on the right side of the law (not opinion) they have agreed grant but are withholding the cert on the basis he might (not buy a gun and not tell them) but he might borrow one (all legally and above board) but might not be able to return it.... that day even though he is legally entitled to have it for 72 hours and that the guidance states 19.2 b iv Quote 19.2. The Firearms Rules 1998 (SI 1941) (as amended) prescribe safe keeping conditions on firearm and shotgun certificates. They create two levels of security: (a) Paragraph (a) provides for the firearms and ammunition to which the certificate relates to be stored securely at all times except as provided in paragraph (b), so as to prevent, as far as is reasonably practicable, access by an unauthorised person; and (b) Paragraph (b) lists the circumstances in which the security requirements of paragraph (a) do not apply: i. when the firearms or ammunition are in use; ii. when certificate holders have the firearm with them for cleaning, repairing or testing it or in connection with its use, transfer or sale; or iii. for some other purpose connected with its use, transfer or sale; or iv. the firearm or ammunition is in transit in connection with any of these purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I think you've already made your mind up as to what the outcome should be so this thread is useless. If your armed with all these FACTS then why don't you tell your friend all about them, educate his FEO and then he will have a licence. You seem to have all the answers on here so instead of sharing them with us, share them with your friend. PROBLEM SOLVED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) On 24/02/2014 at 22:49, Browning 425 clay hunter said: I think you've already made your mind up as to what the outcome should be so this thread is useless. If your armed with all these FACTS then why don't you tell your friend all about them, educate his FEO and then he will have a licence. You seem to have all the answers on here so instead of sharing them with us, share them with your friend. PROBLEM SOLVEDAnd you don't think it I did that already? Thanks to timps for actually posting something really useful. Much appreciated. Timearp thanks for adding your experience. R1steele thanks for info fella. Willpoon I have suggested he try and find a clamp to passify FEO but its a waste of money and and frankly a ghastly device. The plan was to wait for a decent used cabinet at the right money locally, no rush and get decent one with proper capacity rather than buy a "too small" one now to change soon after. With the evidence provided by timps and others I'm happy that the advice I have given is correct (despite the opinions of some). So thankyou to everyone for contributing. Edited February 24, 2014 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 24/02/2014 at 22:15, bostonmick said: I am sorry but it does not have to be your address at all you can store guns at another address as long as it meets the security requirements and nobody has access to the keys.there would be nothing stopping him keeping them at his parents home or your home as long as the property is fitted with suitable security.the home office rules state that if the police deem that there is not sufficient security then the sgc/fac can be revoked so your mate has none.a lot of threads on here are attacking the police over license issues yet some shooters are the worst for mis interpretation of the rules to suit their own ends.the police do not care if your mate or anyone else has a gun so just get a cabinet or don't get a sgc.easy really.atb exactly.this is normal practice with all forces I have known.example father and son who live at different address but use the same guns.easy when you think about it. Yes I know that but if you actually read what I wrote I said that you had to have your address on your SGC/FAC, nothing about where you can keep your guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 01:14, r1steele said: Yes I know that but if you actually read what I wrote I said that you had to have your address on your SGC/FAC, nothing about where you can keep your guns. So I take it there is no problem with his address.just the lack of security/cabinet..the certificate would allow him to borrow or hire a gun for three days.yet he has no secure storage in place in which to keep it.nobody can be certain that nothing is ever going to happen.why is your friend against buying a cabinet.if the fao gave him a certificate and anything happened they would be blamed from all angles.and pigeon watch members are not above jumping on the police for the slightest thing.a cabinet can be had for around £60 used or £160 new for say five guns.and as you say he has no guns that would be plenty of room.the fao is not being unreasonable in this case just doing his job in the correct manner.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I wouldnt agree to keep someones guns, as you would end up with responsability and the incovenience of always being in to take guns in or take them out.Because its your cabinet irrespective of it being shared I would not allow that person to have free access( which I dont think he would be allowed anyhow).I have the same view as some irrespective of the law,no cabinet no licence.Its just too easy for that person to say" I been out all day and cant be bothered to bring the gun back tonight and I've got something on tomorrow I will drop it in the following day" My son has his guns in my cabinet(as a legal requirement) but hes only 15 (holds FAC/SGC),he has no access to the keys.Once he is of age where he can hold the rifles on his own licence,he will have his own cabinet where only he will have access. Edited February 25, 2014 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 07:48, bostonmick said: So I take it there is no problem with his address.just the lack of security/cabinet..the certificate would allow him to borrow or hire a gun for three days.yet he has no secure storage in place in which to keep it.nobody can be certain that nothing is ever going to happen.why is your friend against buying a cabinet.if the fao gave him a certificate and anything happened they would be blamed from all angles.and pigeon watch members are not above jumping on the police for the slightest thing.a cabinet can be had for around £60 used or £160 new for say five guns.and as you say he has no guns that would be plenty of room.the fao is not being unreasonable in this case just doing his job in the correct manner.atb Not my friend, don't even know him. The FEO isn't doing his job, he is required to follow the law not make his own up. If you do not own any guns you don't need any form of security for these non existent guns. A SGC isn't just to own guns but to use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 08:18, Davyo said: I wouldnt agree to keep someones guns, as you would end up with responsability and the incovenience of always being in to take guns in or take them out.Because its your cabinet irrespective of it being shared I would not allow that person to have free access( which I dont think he would be allowed anyhow).I have the same view as some irrespective of the law,no cabinet no licence.Its just too easy for that person to say" I been out all day and cant be bothered to bring the gun back tonight and I've got something on tomorrow I will drop it in the following day" My son has his guns in my cabinet(as a legal requirement) but hes only 15 (holds FAC/SGC),he has no access to the keys.Once he is of age where he can hold the rifles on his own licence,he will have his own cabinet where only he will have access. This is just the same as someone saying 'I've been out all day and I cannot be bothered to put my gun back in the cabinet'. If someone is going to be that casual when it comes to security it would make no difference. I personally wouldn't want to share a cabinet the same as yourself but you never know what may happen in the future so I could never say never. Access is allowed as long as there are no S1 firearms in the cabinet (unless that person also has the said firearms on there FAC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 10:23, r1steele said: Not my friend, don't even know him. The FEO isn't doing his job, he is required to follow the law not make his own up. If you do not own any guns you don't need any form of security for these non existent guns. A SGC isn't just to own guns but to use them. Ok then by your rules I will apply for a fac.not that I want to own one or have any permissions.also not knowing what or who's guns I might use best put all calibre's down.wont need a cabinet as I promise not to buy one.(cheques in the post sir)jobs a good un.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 10:56, bostonmick said: Ok then by your rules I will apply for a fac.not that I want to own one or have any permissions.also not knowing what or who's guns I might use best put all calibre's down.wont need a cabinet as I promise not to buy one.(cheques in the post sir)jobs a good un.atb Huge difference. You need to show good reason and have permissions to obtain a FAC, you don't to obtain a SGC. By the way it's not my rules it's the law. You can actually put the same rifle on two FAC's and still not require a cabinet, I've done it myself with my fathers rimfire and this is in his cabinet about 350 miles away from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) On 25/02/2014 at 11:05, r1steele said: Huge difference. You need to show good reason and have permissions to obtain a FAC, you don't to obtain a SGC. By the way it's not my rules it's the law. You can actually put the same rifle on two FAC's and still not require a cabinet, I've done it myself with my fathers rimfire and this is in his cabinet about 350 miles away from me. You can put two on one ticket but there has to be a cabinet in existence.why is the applicant so bent on not owning a cabinet.anyone who wishes to shoot to any standard and do it seriously needs a gun that suits and fits.and you will not get that by using a different one everytime.i would suggest he re examine his desire to shoot and maybe take up a different sport where the level of responsibility is not as high.i am sorry but I am in full agreement with the fao on this one.atb Edited February 25, 2014 by bostonmick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 11:14, bostonmick said: You can put two on one ticket but there has to be a cabinet in existence.why is the applicant so bent on not owning a cabinet.anyone who wishes to shoot to any standard and do it seriously needs a gun that suits and fits.and you will not get that by using a different fine everytime.i would suggest he re examine his desire to shoot and maybe take up a different sport where the level of responsibility is not as high.i am sorry but I am in full agreement with the fao on this one.atb I said one on two different tickets and there is a cabinet in place. Nobody has suggested the applicant is hell bent on not owning a cabinet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well I am glad GMP doesn't have the same view as those that think no cabinet no licence or I and my friend a few years later would not have got into shooting. I could only go shooting with my dad if I had my own licence and I wasn't going to fit a cabinet in my house as I was always going to use his guns and he wanted them back after I shot. Once I knew it wasn't a passing fad cabinet and my own gun bought. Those that take the view that the possibility a shooter cannot be bothered returning the gun is a good reason to refuse a licence be careful what you wish for. I know a shooter that was being refused a licence because his cabinet was in the loft, for this to be acceptable to the FLO he would have to board out the loft and fit a proper loft ladder because she was concerned he might not be bothered to get the ladders out after a day shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 11:22, r1steele said: I said one on two different tickets and there is a cabinet in place. Nobody has suggested the applicant is hell bent on not owning a cabinet. Simple then let him do what everyone else does and buy a cabinet.he will then get his certificate and he can keep what he likes in it.certificate allows you to possess guns.provided you can show suitable provision for secured keeping of same.why don't you put in for a job as a fao then you could grant all the certs you like under your views and also answer all the awkward questions when it went wrong.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 What you have to remember is that the majority of FEO are only a liason officer and dont have the main say.I take feo with a pinch of salt after 2 stood up in court at the atherton tribunal and addmitted they wher unaware of home office quidance.The one that visited my son for his FAC/SGC was unaware i held both lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris 1985 Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 When I applied I said on the form that I'd be using a family member's cabinet, because I thought I had to have a form of security in place to be granted an SGC (even though I didn't have any guns). Thinking about it now, I wonder if I'd have hit the same wall as HDAV's mate if I'd not had access to a shared cabinet or one of my own at the time? Seems odd to think that having to go to someone else's house specifically to put guns away is acceptable, but having to go up to your own loft is seen as making you less likely to bother. I'd have thought it would be the other way around myself. Overall, I think the grant of an SGC surely implies that they find you to be a sensible, trustworthy person. It seems strange that they would deem you suitable to own guns, but then think you're too lazy / irresponsible to keep them secure at the same time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 [quote name="timps" post="2456620" timestamp="1393329238" I know a shooter that was being refused a licence because his cabinet was in the loft, for this to be acceptable to the FLO he would have to board out the loft and fit a proper loft ladder because she was concerned he might not be bothered to get the ladders out after a day shooting. In my opinion it's a legitimate concern, let's not forget to look at this from the FEO's angle and not just our own perspective. When a FEO does a home visit it is his/her name going on record as saying there are sufficiently satisfied that the gun/guns are stored securely. If they have any doubts about the security they are well within their rights to request more steps to be taken. If someone really wants a SGC that bad they will do what the FEO says, otherwise you don't get one, simples. HDAV can argue the toss all day saying he's right, it's not law to have one and so on, but the simple fact is his mates FEO says he has to have one so he has to have one, SIMPLES ATB 425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 11:53, timps said: Well I am glad GMP doesn't have the same view as those that think no cabinet no licence or I and my friend a few years later would not have got into shooting. I could only go shooting with my dad if I had my own licence and I wasn't going to fit a cabinet in my house as I was always going to use his guns and he wanted them back after I shot. Once I knew it wasn't a passing fad cabinet and my own gun bought. Those that take the view that the possibility a shooter cannot be bothered returning the gun is a good reason to refuse a licence be careful what you wish for. I know a shooter that was being refused a licence because his cabinet was in the loft, for this to be acceptable to the FLO he would have to board out the loft and fit a proper loft ladder because she was concerned he might not be bothered to get the ladders out after a day shooting. There are a great number of people who over the years have tried shooting and given up after a cry short time but have still put cabinets in and bought/ borrowed guns.they have then sold off the items and probably took a loss.thats life I am afraid.if this guy wants to see if he likes it first before commitment then there is enough grounds around that you can shoot at with a club gun and without a certificate.you do not even have to clean the thing.there is a world of difference between a shooter not bothering to put the gun away after a day out to someone who has to drive say 30 miles to take it back to the owner/hirer only to go back the next morning to get it back for another day out.my brother has his in the loft.it is a sensible thing to at least part board the loft to save you stumbling about on the beams and over the insulation possibly dropping and damaging your gun only to clamber out of the hatch while coming down a set of steps or worse a chair.people who are granted fac/sgc are supposed to be responsible sensible law abiding yet this is clearly not the case as these type of threads show.god help the future of shooting.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris B123 Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Some people on here think that an FEO is a god, he or she isnt.They are just people doing a job and they have to abide by the law.. And in this case they have not,.there is no requirement to have a cabinet so they have no right to demand one. If everybody bowed down and excepted all they were told by an FEO then they will start believing they are gods and demanding even more outrageous demands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 13:16, Chris B. said: Some people on here think that an FEO is a god, he or she isnt.They are just people doing a job and they have to abide by the law.. And in this case they have not,.there is no requirement to have a cabinet so they have no right to demand one. If everybody bowed down and excepted all they were told by an FEO then they will start believing they are gods and demanding even more outrageous demands. No quite true you do not have to have a cabinet.but you have to show some security in place somehow.and this chap has none and would seem has no immediate intention of getting any.they are not gods as you rightly say but they do make the recommendations yes or no to the chief constable.based on the interview and the applicants answers and attitude.if you look on the Farnham thread on here someone in a firearms dept made the recommendation to return guns and cert to someone and there are two dead as a result.they are not god but they are going to have to answer a lot of questions now.so do you still blame them for showing caution.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Funnily enough he used to be named on a club FAC never had a cabinet then didn't need one. FAC grant conditions are totally different to an SGC but there is a provision for borrowing and hiring. Also there are ammunition only FAC's He isn't dead set against having a cabinet, he just doesn't need one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On 25/02/2014 at 13:53, HDAV said: Funnily enough he used to be named on a club FAC never had a cabinet then didn't need one. FAC grant conditions are totally different to an SGC but there is a provision for borrowing and hiring. Also there are ammunition only FAC's He isn't dead set against having a cabinet, he just doesn't need one! It would appear in this case he does.or no certificate.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris B123 Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Boston Mick, You dont have to show any signs of security if you dont own a gun. And as long as the FEO followed the law when granting a ticket, then they have no reason to worry about any blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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