Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[Grandalf]

All I can say is that although Council have made their decision on BASC policy position, and although the majority of the feedback thus far has been supporting Councils position on the GL I know some will not be happy with the final outcome, but I am convinced that if we keep working together we will all come through this and be better and stronger.

 

David

David,

BASC can support the changes in the GL but not agree the inclusion of greylags and mallard.

That would be a win/win situation.

[scotslad]

Was just rtrying to see if an olive branch could be offered if the council reversed there decision, but the problem has been not enough time/notice for the comitee, this has really just kicked of the last 2 weeks. and as either yourself or someone else said most of council members could be blissfully unaware of all this and carrying on with there normal life quite happyily.

Possibly at the next comitee meeting it could be brought up, but wether itis too late then i have no idea.

 

Is there any sort of early/preemptive appeal procedure that basc could try to use?

[Kes]

As you say Kes we cant please all the people all the time, and thank you for your feedback.

 

 

Unnecessary David, and not a phrase I expected or actually like.

Nothing personal or intended to offend but 'misplaced corporate speak' sets my teeth on edge.

The response would have meant more without these words.

JMO.

[Terry P]

I think most of the positive feed back as you call it will just be members replying to the link BASC has put on it website. Most have probably not even read it or realise that BASC are agreeing to put Greylag on the GL. The only thing I can see that BASC has highlighted is the 'shoo before you shoot' a phrase used just to fire up members and get them just saying they agree with BASC stance without reading it all.

[David BASC]

Morning Scotslad, yes you are correct, the licence start in Jan, and get reviewed every year, and as we say in our draft response we want assurances that the breeding population is closely monitored. And yes there will be more stakeholder meetings as far as I am aware before anything happens.

 

Kes, sorry that my 'thank you' set your teeth on edge, cant see why saying thank you in an honest way can be taken as 'corporate speak' , perhaps I should have written 'cheers matey, nice one!' (just joking in case you missed it by the way)

 

Terry, the GL consultation affects a lot of shooters and I dare say most will have more interest in in some parts than others

 

David

[Kes]

David, thank you for your response - I dont actually miss much generally.

The phrase I mention has various connotations but if it was an honest 'thank you' then, naturally, I will willingly withdraw my comment.

[riptide]

kent back in 2010 I had a rotator cuff injury ,hurt oh yes !! tears to eye !!! tore it compleatly of !! so had hospital for a week and stiched it all together .. The specialst /Surgen was a shooter when ever I went to see him before or after the repair he spent 5 mins on the shoulder and 15 mins on shooting ,He was a peg shooter and was facinated about my fowling tales and about our gordon Setters and Grouse ,so much so, I think he was of to buy a day on driven grouse !!! Any way shoulder up in air for 6 weeks on a dam great big lump of Foam ,made me look like Long John Silver .it stuck out at right angles with no driving for 6 weeks .hells bells I am a fowler so in 5 days in the truck, but had to have the window open for my shoulder to stick out !!! Do hope your injury sorts out ok !!! but I have learnt to do as told and will repair faster . Good luck !

[muncher]

Well as the acting secretary of FWA I have sent a email to BASC at our disapproval on THE Basc stand on this issue they have also had a letter from our chairman , the washes joint council has also contacted BASC over this issue with the same stance . I was at that meeting and the BASC representatives had a torrid time by all members their, and after the meeting I spoke to the BASC man and he confirmed he had the same feedback from all the club meetings he had attended . I hope as a club officer and as an individual that Basc reconsider there policy but I very much doubt this.

Edited May 17, 2014 by muncher

[riptide]

Holloway, I was not offended, but thanks anyway

 

The vast majority of the replies were from individuals, I will have to look at the info again on Monday get a better idea on the number of club replies, as more may come in over the weekend and of course I don't know if the person replying was simply stating that they were the chair or other senior officer of a club and their club had held a General Meeting on the issue or whether they were simply replying as an individual, but I do know of one club that was supportive has over 100 members.

 

David

 

And had it been fully explained to that clubs members the implications of greys going on a GL ,.And also had any of that clubs members seen any of the posts and info that we have been privvy to !!! ..,on here and also for some of us On the Wildfowling Forum .... I am now getting some reports back from a lot of clubs up and down the East coast ,and as a member of the DHWC and the FWA it does seem their is a lot of discontent out their !!

 

Riptide

[David BASC]

Good evening Riptide,

 

I fully understand that there is a lot of feeling out there, and I know Mark has been very grateful that the members he has met a club meetings over the last few months where this has been discussed that members have been open and frank, but I don't think he has found it torrid.

 

But turning to your specific questions , please remember that information on this has been on our web site since the end of Feb, it was also mentioned in our March magazine, it was mentioned at the wildfowling conference, all club secretaries and prime contacts were written to, all members with an email address were emailed, and of course as an open forum any club members could have seen whats been posted here. In terms of communication what else could we have done?

 

David

Edited May 17, 2014 by David BASC

[House Boat]

Good evening Riptide,

 

I fully understand that there is a lot of feeling out there, and I know Mark has been very grateful that the members he has met a club meetings over the last few months where this has been discussed that members have been open and frank, but I don't think he has found it torrid.

 

But turning to your specific questions , please remember that information on this has been on our web site since the end of Feb, it was also mentioned in our March magazine, it was mentioned at the wildfowling conference, all club secretaries and prime contacts were written to, all members with an email address were emailed, and of course as an open forum any club members could have seen whats been posted 6here. In terms of communication what else could we have done?

 

David

 

 

David I appreciate that this topic has been on the web site since February and in the magazine but you need to understand that the average age of wildfowlers is the wrong side of fifty and if my own club is any thing to go by less than 20 percent are computer literate and I would think less than 2 percent would put pen to paper.

Any one who runs a business will tell you that you don't worry about the customer that complains, you need to worry about the ones that don't.

[Kes]

This thread should be read by everyone - again.

If however you have high blood pressure dont read it.

[David BASC]

Houseboat, I do take your point, which is why we use Shooting &Conservation magazine as well as the wildfowling conference, and direct mail to all club secretaries and prime contact to communicate on this important issue.

 

Now here is a thought, lets say for sake of argument that greylags go onto GL, why don't wildfowling clubs offer up their services to farmers who are having goose problems damaging crops, and help them control the geese. Clubs could make contact with groups of farms and the farmers could have a single point of contact within the club to call as soon as geese start hitting their crops, the club contact would then get in touch with relevant members who can get to the farmer and help control the geese.

 

You can establish with the farmers a management plan and make sure the geese are not over shot, but at the same time the farmers crops will be protected.

 

I will help clubs by paying for advertising and securing advertorials in key farming press and though other promotional opportunities aimed at farmers, I will work with representatives of the WLC to make sure the wording in any promotions is to their satisfaction.

 

David

Edited May 17, 2014 by David BASC

[scotslad]

That's a very generous offer david, is that the personal cheque book or the office 1

 

I've tried to sort of stay on fence and see bot sides to it althou i do find it hard to believe Bascs stance and even harder that they never seen this s* it storm coming.

 

But out of couriostiy off all the fowlers that filled in ur response how many filled in the other parts ie hoodies/jackdaws or shoo before shoot etc.

It's not that inland shooters want greylags on the general licence more most really don't care that much as will never affect them and will have no interrest in shooting them anyway, same as if u never filled the par about hoodie crows as it doesn't affect u.

And to be honest if it wasn't for the rogues out there there would be no problem with it being on the GL

[Kes]

David,

Wouldnt that be just as valid if Greylag were on SL and the farmers contacted the club as the problem manifested itself - they could then fire a few shots in the air until such time as the licence is approved, by which time the geese will be so aware, they will not return - no geese shot, no problem.

I take it from the penultimate line that this is now accepted BASC policy, but members who pay.

I am sorry to re-enter this, but I am appalled at some of the things I have re-read in this thread.

It also started in a fairly retrained way, given the subject and reached its ignition temperature quite quickly.

[House Boat]

Well I was at the Wildfowling conference and R.A. blatantly refused to talk about this issue, as Mr R.A said at the meeting today at the Mill if you stick your head in the sand like an Ostrich your likely to get your **** bitten. Its as if you are completely oblivious to the discontent among wildfowlers over this issue. To suggest clubs shoot greylag for farmers shows me just how out of touch you really are on this subject, despite every thing that has been written here and on the Wildfowling forum you just don't get it do you?

Edited May 17, 2014 by House Boat

[David BASC]

Scotslad, most of those fowlers who opposed our stance on the GL did not send us a copy of their NE consultation comments so I cant answer that question I am afraid.

 

Houseboat, with regard to the wildfowling conference, its the Chairman of the conference that decides what's discussed not Richard..

 

If you or you club don't want to take me up on this offer and work together to make sure farmers get their crops protected and fowlers help set up management plans with farmers that's your prerogative, but the offer remains on the table. Note I said control the geese with a management plan not necessarily shoot the geese, and as Kes has said, if there is a flock of geese on a field hitting the crops, how many will be shot before they all fly off?

 

Given that one of the key concerns raised on this forum is that inland shooters will overshoot geese , and I have offered to help find a solution to this potential problem I am surprised that you have turned you back so quickly, who would you rather have helping farmers protect their crops from geese, wildfowlers or these inland shooters who some have (wrongly in my view) claimed will simply ''murder loads of geese for the sale of it?

 

David

Edited May 17, 2014 by David BASC

[House Boat]

I may be wrong but I always thought the basc was there to support its members not support farmers, local Councils and Natural England.

[Kes]

David you have also said that no-one will shoot Greylags out of season, remember ? I contrasted that view with the BASC view of the current use of lead shot illegally by inland (game) shooters.

With the greatest respect you cant have it both ways (see above).

Also my comments re shooting related to shooting into the air prior to getting an SL but not under GL.

Farmers incidentally may be members of BASC but mostly not I would think and whilst they do very kindly provide access for very many members, I dont think they are that fickle or incapable that they will exclude shooters or be unable to try and solve a problem by themselves.

How many SL's were issued last year ?

Were not a good number issued to conservation bodies?

[David BASC]

Houseboat, of course BASC is here it support our members! That is exactly what I am trying to do .And please remember the vast majority of BASC members gain access to their shooting though farmers...get on the wrong side of them and watch shooting opportunities slip away - this may no impact you on the foreshore but what about everyone else?

 

Kes, what I have maintained is that there is no mass appetite for commercial inland goose shooting outside of the season, I referenced this to canadas that have been on the GL for several years. I have not said it does not happen in some places but not all - remember I asked you to tell me of how many inland shoots for geese you knew of in your part of Cheshire that operate outside of the season, I note you have not answered that... You may also recall that have pointed out that thousands of geese have been potentially shot under the class or individual licence, the figures for this are in the public domain, as are the figures for the numbers of licences issued as I am sure you know.

 

But as several on this thread have said they fear this will happen if greylags end up on the GL i.e. loads of inland shoots will start shooting geese indiscriminately which will have an impact on their numbers when it comes to the start of the wildfowling season. Personally I cant see this happening, never the less if wildfowling clubs work with farmers and indeed inland shoots they can help make sure management plans are in place.

 

Farmers need to protect their crops, regardless of what licence system is in place, what I am proposing is a practical way for BASC and clubs to work with farmers to satisfy the needs of both.

 

And you asked if members pay for the work BASC does to help them secure shooting opportunity - yes they do, they pay for the work we do to secure stalking opportunity under our stalking schemes, they pay for the work we do to secure wildfowling opportunity through the wildfowling permit scheme promotion, and they pay for all the work we do to help secure shooting leases for wildfowlers on Crown Foreshore.

 

As I say the offer to help work with clubs , is on the table.

 

David

[spartina2]

'nuff said, Mr BASC.

[Kes]

David you asked how many geese had been shot in my area of Cheshire.

That is difficult to be precise about. In season any geese that present themselves as targets are shot by some,

I have seen people, including farmers, shoot Canada in the breeding season when numbers are too low to be a justification (IMHO).

I have shot geese in season Canadas and Greylag usually the former flighting, the latter flying from crops. very small numbers and I like to see them being a problem.

There is, as yet, no commercial market for goose shooting but if you can get £30 quid a night of shooters for roost shooting pigeons, is it possible you will get commercial flighting for geese out of season ?

I think so, there are those more focussed on cash than conservation.

 

I see odd pairs of nesting Greylag, a few Canadas. We both know there will be people who will shoot them out of season and it is obvious to me that beyond the amateur shooter, there are two classes of shooter - those who are true conservationists and wish to preserve their sport for future generations, wild places and other wildlife in general - I count wildfowlers and the more enlightened game shooters amongst these. The third group are the 'if I can I will' shooters who perhaps pay for others to be involved and do the conservation, and seek rather more to 'get their moneys worth'.

Even amateur shooters will take a pot-shot at a goose in the breeding season, because its their first, because its a big bird, because of the 'red mist', because I've not shot one before.

My definitions may not be quite right but, of the geese I have seen when out shooting with a team, all have been shot at (in season) and I have seen a number shot at by individuals out of season (some of them Canadas).

 

Dont forget there are shooters (a lot) who are not BASC members, or members of any other organisation - no one advises them and 'keeps them honest' (if they are not). Will they shoot Greylag inland if they are on the GL - we both know the answer.and also that BASC got this wrong.

 

Now specifically geese I have seen shot in season (single season ) 6, last year - none; (Canadas mainly, Greylag much less than 50% of the total, max 2.

Geese I have seen shot out of season (single season) 3 Canadas, since that is the extent of goose shooting allowed under the General Licence, thats all that should be shot if you understand. Sadly 1 or 2 mistakes were made with identifying Greylags.

(Not by me).

 

Putting Greylags on the GL is simply indefensible and should have been opposed - someone dropped the ball on this.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Kes

[riptide]

David ,dear me you are so far behind the times ,,Yes its been on your web site and we have been looking ,take the FWA,, spent a whole afternoon after AGM discussing this NE consultation !! But what has kicked the dam bucket is the position of our parent body on this ,so when it came to light we react ! and that has only been recently

 

Move to farmers ,most clubs already have the system in place farmer tells our contact we provide cover on our own rented land and also if we do it properly next doors as well .

 

On Brent we go further our farm manager sorts SL out in September befour they come then we each have a copy and we go down to protect ,he rings or we take note as to what brent are doing ,most of us just walk them off or let a shot or two of to scare ,yes some get shot but not many . how many summer shooters will do that if they are not going to fill the pot !!!!!!! we see it as our duty to look after our farmers were we can ..But does not mean we just bow down to them ..in fact we had a very large rent wise so lost some shooting as we stood our ground .got it rented after a cuople of years and allsorts of things went pear shaped ,we then got it offered back at less than when we gave it up !!!! WHY ,because we are organised we police it we behave we discuss with farmer any problems or how we can help Just like I think most clubs do ..

 

As to being mentioned at wildfowl confrence ..Well nowt was said till Ginger Blanye brought it up and it was then muffelled and side tracked .As it seemed Basc did not want to discuss it ,,,with the very members who know the most about it becuse of thei club contacts and knowledge !!

 

Sorry david I have welcomed your replys but feel in some ares you do need to check things out first !!!

 

Riptide

 

Ps Still time to reply to NE and copy Basc in as well GO FOR it LADS !!!!!

[Biddy]

David

 

I was at the wildfowling conference and I seem to recall it was mr Ali who was asked about this and was refusing to be drawn on it when the chairman steped in and backed him up.

You say we were asked to send in our views on the GL at the conference, but Were not BASC already making there decision ,I believe the only reason the WLC didn't make a decision that day was because not every one from the WLC was there.

 

Biddy

[Bazooka Joe]

and I have offered to help find a solution to this potential problem

 

 

 

David, surely the solution to the problem is the SL, & not putting the Greylag & Mallard on the GL,

 

its as plain as the nose on your face, everyone can see it, bar BASC..?