Scully Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Kent I know the bffs was worse, and the CA better, I just feel they could be better still Scully, why can't our organisations be better still? They can be better, but only with the support of their members; and that rarely happens. Take the poor response to the D.Bird shootings, by individual shooters for example. Less than 2% of the total number of shooters could be bothered to respond. A lot of shooters distanced themselves from the hunting fight, that is short sighted, and a lot of labour mp's were quoted and mentioned pay back for the miners strike etc.... Which did little for the miners and ex miners who I know who were big lurcher and terriermen and who also lost their sport.But there's that word again Comp90....'sport' that's what it's all about. Killing for 'sport'. It matters not who you are nor where you come from, killing for 'sport' is anathema. I'm not disagreeing with you, but that's what you're up against. the anti's are making this a class thing to gain support from the lower classes, Yes, they are. we need to show shooting isn't just a toff sport! We need to tell the truth.Yes, we do. But so does the opposition, and to be honest, we're outnumbered. Why can't our organisations be like the usa nra?Because there simply aren't enough people interested in shooting/hunting, so we simply don't have the numbers to exert political clout. Because we are all too reserved and "british" If you mean by 'reserved' apathetic, then yes. We only have ourselves to blame. Yes a lot marched before the ban, but how many were anti's infiltrating the ranks to start a riot with the police, get hunters a bad name and damage our cause I have no idea; have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Scully we are not outnumbered, fieldsportsmen (not including anglers) outnumber the lacs and other anti organisations massively but we are fractured and represented by too many organisations..... Where the anti's are good is that they think and fight smart, 100 people writing letters to their mp all the time seems like a million people to the mp's as they don't expect all of those with an opinion to write and they imagine its just the tip of the iceberg contacting them making the problem and opinion seem bigger to them. Its all about perception, there are very few animal rights activists but they are very vocal, good at letter writing, good at harassing mp's and attending mp's surgeries etc...... We are not until its too later. And also an anarchist's way to deal with an opposition protest is to get involved and stir things up......... 100,000 people pro hunting, 10 anti hunting but dressed the part....... The 10 mingle, throw a few things, hit a copper and the police take action, it then looks like the police are oppressing their "colleagues" and the 100,000 are outraged and a few end up trying to help and also get nicked.....end result is a peaceful protest gets a bad rep and the cause is damaged......marching is the last thing you should do in such circumstance, as the anti's can and do succesful cause such issues..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Yes a lot marched before the ban, but how many were anti's infiltrating the ranks to start a riot with the police, get hunters a bad name and damage our cause What a daft statement. Everyone from the police to the media reported that those attending were impeccable of manners and behavior and that the streets of London were left cleaner than they have ever been. Did you see any antis marching, because I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 CharlieT - based on compo90's "logic" - shooters or hunters would infiltrate anti-hunting protests and misbehave. That would get them a bad name. It is so naïve, it is almost childlike. There was a member on here, quite a few years ago, jimmy something or other, who wrote in a very similar style about the ban on pistols. Wonder what happened to him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Sorry when the hunting march descended into a riot in parliment square, where were you two? That is what I am on about and I know that ended up bloody due to anti's infiltrating the hunting march...... Notice the anti hunt/shoot do not have marches and protests, they don't number enough to fill a big pub let alone whitehall, what they do have is brains and cunning, and criminal records meaning they have nothing to lose by being arrested un-like us, and the police won't differntiate or investigate the persons motives once they are nicked........... Trust someone who knows that's what happens at such protest marches, the opposition turn up, blend in and kick the whole thing off, setting the protesters/marchers off aginst the police, weakening their public sympathy and credence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Yes impeccable behaviour..... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1170404/ROBERT-HARDMAN-Why-Left-silent-riot-squads-inflicted-terrible-injuries-peaceful-country-folk-2004.html impeccable behaviour doesn't start this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 And you don't see the anti's as they pretend to be pro..... That's the whole point you really need to read what I type rather than pick selections Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Sorry when the hunting march descended into a riot in parliment square, where were you two? That is what I am on about and I know that ended up bloody due to anti's infiltrating the hunting march...... Notice the anti hunt/shoot do not have marches and protests, they don't number enough to fill a big pub let alone whitehall, what they do have is brains and cunning, and criminal records meaning they have nothing to lose by being arrested un-like us, and the police won't differntiate or investigate the persons motives once they are nicked........... Trust someone who knows that's what happens at such protest marches, the opposition turn up, blend in and kick the whole thing off, setting the protesters/marchers off aginst the police, weakening their public sympathy and credence Lets get the facts right. Just for the record, I attended all three separate CA "events" in London, the rally, the march and finally the in Parliament Square. It was the final "rally" in Parliament Square that turned a little nasty, not, as you suggest, because of anti infiltration, but solely because of the bully boy tactics used by the metropolitan police to segregate hunting supporters and treating them like common criminals............I know because I was one of those on the receiving end of a police baton. So please stop spouting drivel and untruths, it does your cause no favors. Neither the Rally nor the march ended in chaos. There was just a little hot headedness at the protest outside parliament when the commons were having the final debate. Next you'll be telling me that hunting disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Scully we are not outnumbered, fieldsportsmen (not including anglers) outnumber the lacs and other anti organisations massively Yes, we are outnumbered, and in more ways than just numbers.If we weren't do you seriously think we would be having these problems.? If there were more shooters in this country than not, then things may be different. It wouldn't mean the end of our problems, but it would mean we had political clout. We don't. but we are fractured and represented by too many organisations..... Agreed, and as I've already pointed out. But what do you intend to do about this? Do you seriously think a BASC representative is going to suggest they dissolve their organisation and become one with all the other organisations? There can only be one CEO. Which one do you suggest stands down (at a drastic cut in salary) to make room for one of the others? Have you really thought this through? Where the anti's are good is that they think and fight smart, They think good and fight dirty, not smart, to the extent they break laws, and that is an avenue not open to us as we own firearms. 100 people writing letters to their mp all the time seems like a million people to the mp's as they don't expect all of those with an opinion to write and they imagine its just the tip of the iceberg contacting them making the problem and opinion seem bigger to them. Its all about perception, there are very few animal rights activists but they are very vocal, Yes, they are. good at letter writing, good at harassing mp's and attending mp's surgeries etc Are they? You know this for a fact do you? ...... We are not until its too later.As I've already pointed out, we aren't even after it's too late. And also an anarchist's way to deal with an opposition protest is to get involved and stir things up......... 100,000 people pro hunting, 10 anti hunting but dressed the part....... The 10 mingle, throw a few things, hit a copper and the police take action, it then looks like the police are oppressing their "colleagues" and the 100,000 are outraged and a few end up trying to help and also get nicked.....end result is a peaceful protest gets a bad rep and the cause is damaged......marching is the last thing you should do in such circumstance, as the anti's can and do succesful cause such issues..... Even if this were true, what do you suggest we do about it? As firearms owners we have to be squeaky clean. Our hands are tied. What do you think the likes of Monbiot and the anti press, the rest of the media, anti MP's and the Police would make of it if we, the firearms owning public, mixed it in the street? No matter how much carp deceit the antis come out with, all we have to counter it with is reasoned argument and debate, carried out with honesty and integrity. That's all we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Yes impeccable behaviour..... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1170404/ROBERT-HARDMAN-Why-Left-silent-riot-squads-inflicted-terrible-injuries-peaceful-country-folk-2004.html impeccable behaviour doesn't start this Yet again, you believe all that is written in the media. You really are quite naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomov Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Lets get the facts right. Just for the record, I attended all three separate CA "events" in London, the rally, the march and finally the in Parliament Square. It was the final "rally" in Parliament Square that turned a little nasty, not, as you suggest, because of anti infiltration, but solely because of the bully boy tactics used by the metropolitan police to segregate hunting supporters and treating them like common criminals............I know because I was one of those on the receiving end of a police baton. So please stop spouting drivel and untruths, it does your cause no favors. Neither the Rally nor the march ended in chaos. There was just a little hot headedness at the protest outside parliament when the commons were having the final debate. Next you'll be telling me that hunting disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle Like Charlie, I attended the rally, the march and the parliament square demo which ended badly (as well as christ knows how many other demos around the UK). I agree with his version of events completely. There is always an interesting debate to be had around the effectiveness of our representative bodies, Compo 90 and indeed, whether they are too fragmented and would serve our cause better with a more united voice. However, you are conflating too many issues into one argument and serving up a few inaccuracies which are clouding the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Sorry on the day of the parliment square march, I was wearing a uniform and was on the "other" side, I know some "anti's" got arrested as I spoke to some in custody......it doesn't take much to make police start enforcing public order tactics.....and scared officers just see a crowd....they can't differentiate and neither do the crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 compo90 - I will admit to being astonished that you are a Policeman. If you genuinely are - I suggest comments like it doesn't take much to make police start enforcing public order tactics.....and scared officers just see a crowd question your fitness for the force. Are you seriously saying that the Police are so scared, they will arrest anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Not arrest anyone, imagine a couple of hundred old bill 100000 people protesting 10 trouble makers attack a couple of coppers. The 10 blend into the crowd, the crowd are sympathetic to the 10 as they think they are on the same side Public disorder ensues as the police try and extract the 10. That's what anarchists and anti's do at all sorts of marches. And being in uniform doesn't remove being scared when it all kicks off and you are outnumbered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Sorry on the day of the parliment square march, I was wearing a uniform and was on the "other" side, I know some "anti's" got arrested as I spoke to some in custody......it doesn't take much to make police start enforcing public order tactics.....and scared officers just see a crowd....they can't differentiate and neither do the crowd. Considering it was a fairly small crowd, as far as demo's go, I got the impression that everyone knew everyone, I truly am surprised that you arrested anti's standing shoulder to shoulder with supporters. I know that there was a group of anti's sectioned off and demonstrating on one corner, perhaps it is some of those who were arrested. But, as far as I and my friends are concerned, there were certainly no anti's in our midst and the argy bargy that ensued was, as I said, the result of a little over enthusiasm on both sides. Interestingly, considering how peaceful and carnival like the previous rally and march was, I sensed that particular demo was being handled differently by the police when we were all photographed as we arrived and immediately ushered in small groups by riot police long before the start. Not arrest anyone, imagine a couple of hundred old bill 100000 people protesting 10 trouble makers attack a couple of coppers. The 10 blend into the crowd, the crowd are sympathetic to the 10 as they think they are on the same side Public disorder ensues as the police try and extract the 10. That's what anarchists and anti's do at all sorts of marches. And being in uniform doesn't remove being scared when it all kicks off and you are outnumbered. Where on earth are you getting your figures from, I'm sorry but your entire post is plain fiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 His posts are the ramblings of someone desperate to justify what they have written. I honestly find it hard to take a single post seriously. Police are referred to as "coppers" and then "old bill". I have many friends in the Police and have worked with many more - never heard them sound like this self proclaimed Policeman. :whistling: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Your posts reveal a naivety and lack of articulation that makes it hard for me to believe you're a copper. Is that what you're now claiming? If so, is it true some officers removed their ID so as not to be revealed? I'm sorry, PC Mitty, but I can't take you seriously anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 well its an offence in itself to impersonate one is it not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Believe what you want, if you are that bothered pm me and I will send you an alternative email address that will help.....but that aside I wasn't policing parliment square as I said I met some in custody......they were dressed as per the pro hunter and other reasons that I can not divulge meant I knew where their allegiances were And the figures I gave were examples of how easy it is to start such a confrontation, it doesn't take many to pose alongside to cause issues, that's the point.....1 infiltrator for evey 1000 or so is enough to kick most things off This is miles away from the start of this thread that we and the organisations that represent us as shooters/hunters are sleep walking into the start of what I envisage will be serious restrictions on what we have..... I reiterate A we need to show the diversity of people involved in shooting and remove the "toffs" idea. B all the organisations need to merge, I know someone was worried about the ceo's pay and benefits and someone standing down, but that's not my worry, it isn't a business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 His posts are the ramblings of someone desperate to justify what they have written. I honestly find it hard to take a single post seriously. Police are referred to as "coppers" and then "old bill". I have many friends in the Police and have worked with many more - never heard them sound like this self proclaimed Policeman. :whistling: Gordon Couldn't agree more. I feel I'm fueling his 5 minutes of fame, so I'm going to bow out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 compo90 - you start a thread suggesting we all pull together, but your arguments seem naïve and flawed to me. As for your "Police" role - you brought up your alleged status and now you seem to be getting a little coy about it. I wonder why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 (edited) I couldnt care less about some CEO losing 'pay and benefits' ! It was meant as an example of the leader of one organisation standing down for the benefit of another if the organisations merged . You cant have more than one chief executive. This really is hard work! What isnt ' a business' ? Edited May 5, 2014 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Please feel free to pm me, if you want, I will give you my work email address and will reply when at work tomorrow afternoon I stand by A we need to show the diversity of backgrounds involved in shooting and fieldsports B we need one super organisation to be proactive in promoting A and also managing the media Those arguing with me on this thread seem content with the current organisations set up and someone even seemed worried about redundancies if a ca and basc merged...... These are all an aside....... The attack is ongoing and we are fiddling whilst rome burns.....sorry for the bad grammar and other ramblings, I am using my phone hence the poor lay out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 (edited) If you are a Policeman, I don't believe you should be using works e-mails for your private business. You would be going outside a secure Government network. Edited May 5, 2014 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Gordon, there is no issue with sending one email saying hello. Obviously using that email address for a business or such would be wrong but we use such sending of an email as proof of identity all the time, imagine you run a shop, a crime occurred outside, someone rings up asking questions and wanting to know security information, you wouldn't divulge but an email from a police server would porove identity...... Anyway you said I aint a copper or old bill or fuzz or a rozzer or the filth so why worry as I wouldn't be able to email you from work anyway as I don't work there do I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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