Restoration project; a quickie!

[Old farrier]

Hi

Great job would be great to shoot it but I see your reasoning

Just for a bit of information you can still get new unfinished Damascus tubes should you wish to re barrel it

All the best

Of

[demonwolf444]

Hi

Great job would be great to shoot it but I see your reasoning

Just for a bit of information you can still get new unfinished Damascus tubes should you wish to re barrel it

All the best

Of

Ha, all this talk of shooting it - it may happen yet!

 

Yeh.. seen those at peter dyson, at £300 a piece its not a cheap option. I do have idea's as to what i could ( and might ) do with one or two of those tubes..However i won't take my own idea's seriously until i see my self cough up and pay for them. Maybe i should start saving...

 

( bore you all with a build thread of course ha )

Edited May 23, 2014 by demonwolf444

[Tad-blody]

Nice work. I thought it was a hopeless case in first couple of pics.

How do you manage to clean and polish the lock work without damaging the engraving?

I might have a go at tidying my Grandfathers old hammergun if it's something I can do.

[Kes]

Lovely job. It looks like it might have been a flintlock converted - but why would you?

It has the ramrod clip - never seen one on a pinfire before and the hammers are very long. Has it been converted / been something else?

Lovely though now and a worthwhile gun.

[WelshAndy]

Percussion shotgun

[demonwolf444]

Nice work. I thought it was a hopeless case in first couple of pics.

How do you manage to clean and polish the lock work without damaging the engraving?

I might have a go at tidying my Grandfathers old hammergun if it's something I can do.

Appreciate your kind words.

For cleaning metal work you want to remove enough corrosion and grime so the craftsmanship and engraving can be appreciated without making it look like the gun was made yesterday. In practice this sounds easy but in reality its often a very fine line, and it certainly takes some practice to realize when to stop at a point that strikes this delicate balance, have not quite discovered this line yet but i think I'm getting there! Its very easy to get carried away and in the process loose history which may have been better left and conserved.

 

For cleaning up metal work, a couple of toothbrushes, rust remover, de greaser, oil, grease and steel wool. Basically using the rust remover clean the locks using a toothbrush, then wash them. The using steel wool gently scrub them which should remove the worst of the grime and polish them up somewhat; try and not get carried away, its too easy to end up with mirror shiny metal, while satisfying.. you have polished off hundreds of years of hard won patina. You can use fine wet and dry but i would not use anything more aggressive than 600 grit or you risk taking too much off to quick. When you finish thoroughly wash the locks clean and de greased. Then Lightly grease moving and working components ( if you can see the grease there is probably too much ). Thoroughly oil the lock plates and outsides working the oil into the engraving. Wipe off the excess before reassembling.

 

Best advice is to be overly conservative with your restorations, you can always take more off but you can't stick it back on. Its the age patina and history that makes these guns interesting.

Lovely job. It looks like it might have been a flintlock converted - but why would you?

It has the ramrod clip - never seen one on a pinfire before and the hammers are very long. Has it been converted / been something else?

Lovely though now and a worthwhile gun.

Thankyou!

 

Yes I also think this is a flintlock convert to percussion lock ( NOT PINFIRE? ).

 

This is the history of this gun..a long with a great deal of speculation and guess work.

 

The gun was made by Calderwood of Dublin who is referenced as to supplying the lord lieutenants and his officers with arms. Possibly this gun was made for the lord lieutenant or one of his officers as a sporting flintlock double. More likely it was just made for some wealthy gentry; Flintlock doubles are not cheap now and i imagine they were pretty pricey back then. Another explanation is that this gun was made from parts lying around the workshop.

 

The trigger guard's more rounded style is more common based on the guns i have seen, in the older flintlock doubles, and associated conversions to percussion; guns built as percussion doubles more normally have the oval trigger guards which we associate with double trigger guns today. I am no expert on this so this is just based on the many different guns i have seen.

 

The gun was then converted from flintlock to a percussion gun with back action locks. This process involved scrapping the stock; scrapping the locks, scrapping the breach plugs, Making new breach plugs with platinum burst discs, restocking, which reused the trigger guard and the top tang, and fitting the back action percussion locks and engraving them to match.

 

The engraving on the locks does not match the engraving on the top tang and the trigger guard.. which leads us to assume it is a conversion from flintlock to percussion lock or at least that is could be a parts gun. Although i question if a parts gun would be finished to such a high standard and there for would assume the conversion theory. Also the barrel is engraved DUBLIN, and the locks Calderwood, which makes me think that it was originally made and converted by calderwoods, which if you wanted to read in to that more could suggest some kind of loyalty back to calderwood, which could take you back to the line of thought about it belonging to the lord lft or his officers..again pure speculation.

 

Converting the gun this way seems to basically be a full rebuild from the barrels up which i would assume was pretty costly. I have seen a singular gun which was converted progressively from double flinter to double percussion, to double pinfire, to centerfire, so while it may easier to buy a new gun, conversions were obviously fairly common practice in the trade.

 

I have then been offered two theory as to why it was painted black.

 

1) the old boys did it to stop their black powder guns from rusting.

 

2) Around the world wars when guns were in short supply to home guard type units the gun was painted black to either smarten it up or to stop the metal work reflecting in the night.

 

Option number two gives the gun a richer history if entirely speculative. We will never know.

 

Anyway at some point the gun was put away where it was quietly ignored and not abused. And eventually it made its way to a gun shop.

 

As to the hammers more unusual style, i have seen others in this style including a muzzle loading gun by mcnaughton, which had similar hammers and it was made as a percussion gun, and was not a convert so while unusual.. i do not think they are an uncommon style of hammer on back action guns.

 

Cheers guys hope you enjoyed my ramblings!

[Dave-UK]

"Haven't forgotten about your wood - just chasing some people up for money at the moment!"

 

No problem, whenever you're ready.

[welshwarrior]

The painting for Home Gaurd is normal I got a rough old BLNE the had been paint OD green and had it's unit number black painted on the stock. It seems people donated spare/surplus guns to the Home Gaurd to help arm them so certainly a good explanation.

[Kes]

Demonwolf - thank you - I now know a bit more. Whilst pinfires have a 'Pin' what distinguishes a pinfire from a percussion gun - I presume the cartridge carries the pin and the percussion is loaded as per flintlock with a percussion nipple which fires into the main charge - where do they fit in gun evolution as I mistakenly thought it went flintlock, pinfire, external hammer and firing pin and enclosed hammers.

Never thought about it before but it seems logical that percussion fits between flintlock and pinfire. Pinfire only lasted a very small number of years before being overtaken by hammers if I remember.

Anyway thank you for the 'ramblings' nice to learn a bit more, a very interesting history too.

[Tad-blody]

Thanks Demonwolf, By rust remover do you mean something like Jenolite or Kurust? and do you just follow the instructions on the bottle?

I'm probably asking too much.

[JABB]

What is in your stock finishing mix?

[demonwolf444]

Yes any of the products above would work, they are not entirely needed you can get by with some persistence and a bit of steel wool.

 

Penetrating oil can be useful too for removing stuck screws. Heat can be used to break rust bonds on screws however this should be applied as localized as possible.. IE don't go at it with a blow torch better to go at it with a soldiering iron on the end of the stuck bolt or screw.

 

The sequence of ignition mechanisms is interesting as like everything different systems suited different countries and cultures at different times therefore its not necessarily a linear progression throughout as i understand it. In modern times Tibetan Nomads still use the matchlock ignition system on rifled barrels and they are considered an important part of nomadic tradition for hunting predators; I imagine its a simpler more reliable system for a country where if you can't make it yourself you don't have it, why else should something so simple stick around since the early C15th.

 

Generally speaking so far as i understand it.

You begin with the Handgonne.

Which was a crude early firearm, a barrel mounted on a stick with a touchhole. I don't think they were overly effective when compared to the power and accuracy of crossbows of the time ( C13th ) which were seeing rapid development.

 

You the move to the Serpentine Lock which is the most simplistic S shaped lever holding a burning slow match cord; this basically allowed people to hold the firearm steady while firing as before you would have to hold the gun in one hand and light it with the cord in another.

 

This developed into the matchlock which refers to simple mechanisms based around a lock plate operate the cock, which holds the match, via a lever or trigger.

 

Another development was the snapping matchlock which was similar to the matchlock except was slightly more complex, employing springs, pulling a lever released the cock, which holds the match, which then moved quickly forward under spring pressure into the pan to ignite the priming charge. Obviously this was an attempt to see faster ignition.. The problem with a snapping matchlock is that the match must make direct contact with the pan therefor the match moving forward quickly into the pan could be extinguished, or could throw powder from the priming pan before it had a chance to ignite ( remember gunpowder qualities were much lower back then! )

 

Around 1500 we see the wheel lock, which was a much more expensive lock to produce, generally it was not used widely by military forces for this reason and was generally used more in personal protection weapons belonging to the wealthy or sporting guns. The wheel lock mechanism work around the principle of using iron pyrites, which is held in the jaws of the cock against a revolving steel wheel to provide the spark, and is there for the first mechanism which did not require the user to carry a burning match with him. This allowed for more efficient hunting as the smell of burning match could be smelt by animals, and the quicker ignition allowed for wing shooting. However the complicated design was difficult to make, and early metal smiths struggled to create reliable springs, all this added to the cost of the mechanism.

 

We then get the Miquelet lock, which i do not fully understand, which is in use from the 16th century, its essentially an early form of flint and steel spring driven mechanism, simpler and cheaper than the wheel lock.

 

The Snaphaunce follows and again seems to be another flint and steel mechanism; they are different variations of components and functions..

 

The doglock is used from 17C forward, its what we would recognize as the modern flintlock mechanism except with one major difference; it has no half cock position, but a catch that engages the cock on the outside of the lock to create a crude safety function.

 

We then arrive at flintlock mechanisms, internal on a lock plate. Cheap, simple and reliable.

 

We progress from flintlock to patch lock ( very short time period, which i know very little about )

 

to cap lock/ percussion lock as you see in my OP

 

, followed by pin fire cartridges which had the firing pin protruding out of the case where the other end was resting against a primer inside the shell.

 

, rim fire, center fire.

 

From the patch lock to the center fire numerous gunsmiths were all patenting different ignition mechanisms, breach loading variants of all kinds its there are "teat fire cartridges" " needle firing guns" " Lancasters Tube locks"... so many others that were in use but did not quite take off in the same way.

[Spaniel]

You have carried out a great job with that one looks really good

[demonwolf444]

Cheers, ram rod is being made, rushed off my feet at the moment!

[johnbaz]

Hi all

 

I bought an old muzzle loading damascus Shottie that came with a bottle of barrel plum brown, the poor thing has been polished to death ready for the browning buy can anyone say how the rest of the steelwork should be finished?? The same plum brown or blued or something different??

 

I too have to make a ramrod for it!

 

 

From measuring the bore, it seems that this is a 16 bore gun

 

On the bottle it says that I should gently heat the barrels until a drop of water 'sizzles' then apply the solution

 

 

Cheers, John

[demonwolf444]

I have always been very strongly advised by those far more experienced and practiced than myself against using birchwood casey plumb brown solution and other quick browning solutions on Damascus barrels.

 

John Baz i have replied to your PM with more detail to your questions!

 

Show and tell - its a nice looking shotgun, what do you know about it?

 

As i say i have gone in to more detail in the PM i sent you but the the benefit of everyone else i will repeat it here

 

Barrels: Everyone assumes that damascus barrels came one way; browned. This is not the case, there were different kinds of finish available revealing the patterns in different ways.. Brown and white. Black and Brown, Black and white, and Etched. The thing with finishing damascus barrels is like wood it has character; you cant look at an image of refinished barrels and aim for the same colour, as when you get right down to it the barrels will dictate what color they finish up as. I have heard it said many times to never use plumb brown or other quick browning solutions, i am told it will "ruin the barrels" quite how this is; i have to say i am not entirely sure having never tried. But certainly it is reported that you will just get a flat finish that will not differently affect the different iron and steel and will not reveal the pattern in the same way as slow rust browning. I would suggest you rust brown the barrels, depending on how you long you brown them for and how you polish them you can get black and brown, black and white or brown and white. Etching is done with stronger acids.

 

Lock plates should have color case hardening. However it will probably have worn off, and once its gone you can't revive it. You can have them re colour cased; however you risk many things in the process, parts can significantly warp, you can over harden them, they can shatter, they can crack or produce stress fractures its expensive even the people who call themselves experts would not do it because of these reasons when i inquired - in which case just polish up the lock plates sympathetically. If its too late for a sympathetic approach look at "forced patina knife blades".. which might give you idea's as to how you can put some age back on to the metal. Too bright and shiny looks wrong on things that are 150+ years old.

 

You can blue the hammers, on this project i left them to better reveal the engraving on the hammers, on the one i restocked the hammers were dull and so i blued them by oil bluing.

 

For the ramrod i am going to be working on a jig that will allow me to turn a very fine diameter oak dowel tapering from about 10mm - 5mm. Then ebonize the dowel unless i can find a replacement.

 

cheers guys.