Fisherman Mike Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) No I don't think it was a waste of time but it its been very naïve of us to assume the rats wouldn't return once the cat was away. Muslims were fighting each other when we were still living in caves and its only in the last 200 years ( but a grain of sand in the desert in the scheme of things ) has the severity and extent of the feudal, tribal and religious warring come to the attention of the western public with the advent of modern communications. Its the same in Africa, population explosions following prolonged periods of good harvest followed by famine were always controlled by regionalised war, disease and mass starvation, then along came the civilised west and tried to anglicise them and we are now left with millions requiring aid each year. The wealthy Arabs who have made a fortune from oil, hypocritically embrace the western culture and have a greed for materialistic possession far more acute than any Western oligarch, and if you don't have wealth in the middle east you have nothing apart from fanatical religious beliefs. The conflict between the Sunni and the Shiite factions of Islam will never be prevented by Western or Eastern intervention. I think we should leave well alone, distance ourselves from it, concentrate our resources in rebuilding our own economy and armed forces and hope they kill as many of each other as they can. Edited June 16, 2014 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsallpl Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 nice bit of reading here. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/etc/arsenal.html KW[/quote That is a very interesting read kdubya, thank you for posting it. Should make it compulsory reading for some of the guys posting on this thread as a reality check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 No I don't think it was a waste of time but it its been very naïve of us to assume the rats wouldn't return once the cat was away. Muslims were fighting each other when we were still living in caves and its only in the last 200 years ( but a grain of sand in the desert in the scheme of things ) has the severity and extent of the feudal, tribal and religious warring come to the attention of the western public with the advent of modern communications. Its the same in Africa, population explosions following prolonged periods of good harvest followed by famine were always controlled by regionalised war, disease and mass starvation, then along came the civilised west and tried to anglicise them and we are now left with millions requiring aid each year. The wealthy Arabs who have made a fortune from oil, hypocritically embrace the western culture and have a greed for materialistic possession far more acute than any Western oligarch, and if you don't have wealth in the middle east you have nothing apart from fanatical religious beliefs. The conflict between the Sunni and the Shiite factions of Islam will never be prevented by Western or Eastern intervention. I think we should leave well alone, distance ourselves from it, concentrate our resources in rebuilding our own economy and armed forces and hope they kill as many of each other as they can. They have a looooong way to go to match the death toll the West has inflicted upon its own people though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 No I don't think it was a waste of time but it its been very naïve of us to assume the rats wouldn't return once the cat was away. Muslims were fighting each other when we were still living in caves and its only in the last 200 years ( but a grain of sand in the desert in the scheme of things ) has the severity and extent of the feudal, tribal and religious warring come to the attention of the western public with the advent of modern communications. Its the same in Africa, population explosions following prolonged periods of good harvest followed by famine were always controlled by regionalised war, disease and mass starvation, then along came the civilised west and tried to anglicise them and we are now left with millions requiring aid each year. The wealthy Arabs who have made a fortune from oil, hypocritically embrace the western culture and have a greed for materialistic possession far more acute than any Western oligarch, and if you don't have wealth in the middle east you have nothing apart from fanatical religious beliefs. The conflict between the Sunni and the Shiite factions of Islam will never be prevented by Western or Eastern intervention. I think we should leave well alone, distance ourselves from it, concentrate our resources in rebuilding our own economy and armed forces and hope they kill as many of each other as they can. I find it a bit odd that on the one hand you are indignant that songbirds are shot in Malta and on the other hand quite happy to see millions of children condemned to a slow death by starvation or blown to bits because they live in a different continent, ( your option of their destruction makes slavery a worthwhile career choice) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I'm assuming that now UK and US is restoring full diplomatic link with Iran that they will now be called Freedom Fighters instead of Terrorists It was heartening to hear John Kerry say they are going to stop the massacres. Will this includes the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians that have been killed in "shock and awe" US airstrikes? They still don't seem to grasp the idea that every time they drop a bomb they create recruits filled with resentment for 'Western values'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsallpl Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 No I don't think it was a waste of time but it its been very naïve of us to assume the rats wouldn't return once the cat was away.Muslims were fighting each other when we were still living in caves and its only in the last 200 years ( but a grain of sand in the desert in the scheme of things ) has the severity and extent of the feudal, tribal and religious warring come to the attention of the western public with the advent of modern communications.Its the same in Africa, population explosions following prolonged periods of good harvest followed by famine were always controlled by regionalised war, disease and mass starvation, then along came the civilised west and tried to anglicise them and we are now left with millions requiring aid each year.The wealthy Arabs who have made a fortune from oil, hypocritically embrace the western culture and have a greed for materialistic possession far more acute than any Western oligarch, and if you don't have wealth in the middle east you have nothing apart from fanatical religious beliefs.The conflict between the Sunni and the Shiite factions of Islam will never be prevented by Western or Eastern intervention.I think we should leave well alone, distance ourselves from it, concentrate our resources in rebuilding our own economy and armed forces and hope they kill as many of each other as they can. Hi Fisherman Mike. Don't you think it is worth a try though to bring them into the 21st century western democratic way of life. I don't think we should try and influence their culture but for the good of the rest of the world they MUST adopt the democratic way of living. It wasn't long ago in the grain of the desert in the scheme of things that we had tribal type wars, the last I guess being the Yorkists kicking the Lancasters. We discovered democracy and we now fight it out over the ballot table. So we're not that different, just hopefully a couple of hundred years ahead at the moment. Plenty of countries that were so called tribal 200 years ago have evolved into democratic states, why won't the few remaining in the Middle East not do so with some help. The world is too small these days to ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Hi Fisherman Mike. Don't you think it is worth a try though to bring them into the 21st century western democratic way of life. I don't think we should try and influence their culture but for the good of the rest of the world they MUST adopt the democratic way of living. It wasn't long ago in the grain of the desert in the scheme of things that we had tribal type wars, the last I guess being the Yorkists kicking the Lancasters. We discovered democracy and we now fight it out over the ballot table. So we're not that different, just hopefully a couple of hundred years ahead at the moment. Plenty of countries that were so called tribal 200 years ago have evolved into democratic states, why won't the few remaining in the Middle East not do so with some help. The world is too small these days to ignore it. Do you not see the irony of forcing democracy upon a society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsallpl Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Do you not see the irony of forcing democracy upon a society? Yes KFC I do, but the importance of the issue far outweighs the sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 democratic way of living? poisoned by capitalism, corruption, greed etc just like the rest of the political ideals. It is indeed the democratic capitalists that drive our only interest in these areas of the world.... oil and money. We continue to let the Africans cut each other up with machetes because when it comes to it the governments arent interested in fighting for democracy they're interested in profit and power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsallpl Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 democratic way of living? poisoned by capitalism, corruption, greed etc just like the rest of the political ideals. It is indeed the democratic capitalists that drive our only interest in these areas of the world.... oil and money. We continue to let the Africans cut each other up with machetes because when it comes to it the governments arent interested in fighting for democracy they're interested in profit and power. So Thepasty. What are your thoughts on any solutions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 nice bit of reading here. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/etc/arsenal.html KW[/quote That is a very interesting read kdubya, thank you for posting it. Should make it compulsory reading for some of the guys posting on this thread as a reality check. They dont need to read up on a subject before spouting tosh and misguided opinion KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 democratic way of living? poisoned by capitalism, corruption, greed etc just like the rest of the political ideals. It is indeed the democratic capitalists that drive our only interest in these areas of the world.... oil and money. We continue to let the Africans cut each other up with machetes because when it comes to it the governments arent interested in fighting for democracy they're interested in profit and power. completely agree the west is only in it for money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 So Thepasty. What are your thoughts on any solutions? Leave them to it, history proves that interfering with other nations affairs when they are clearly not ready for it doesnt work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) having said that, we screwed up Iraq in the first place, we should have left Saddam in power. We should give the green light to an Iranian invasion and be done with it.... but certainly not go bombing, put troops on the ground or fund anything. Edited June 17, 2014 by thepasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Yes KFC I do, but the importance of the issue far outweighs the sentiment. We have imposed democracy on Iraq and the result is civil war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) completely agree the west is only in it for money About right but the gain to them is immense is it not? we according to some exploited the world and raped its produce under the guise of our Empire, in return we also gave security and in the most a stable life, then the pressure of the morally indignant was acceded to and we let them go on their own, only for them to turn into murderous cesspits with more corruption and inhuman treatment of the people than you could ever dream of,and then they said that was our fault for "creating" the corrupt state? you could not make it up, And now after pulling out and letting the barbarians in yet again we WILL be forced to go back yep it WILL happen and the same morally indignant will cry foul yet again.saying leave them be, its their country and nowt to do with us,sadly it is EVERYTHING to do with us if you want women kids and innocents to stop being slaughtered for a stone age ideology. KW Edited June 17, 2014 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsallpl Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 We have imposed democracy on Iraq and the result is civil war. Not quite just yet. It is the groups that believe their way is the only way. It is completely the opposite to a democracy. The Government must squash this one or it will put Irag back 30 years and all our brave guys efforts will have been in vain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsallpl Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 And now after pulling out and letting the barbarians in yet again we WILL be forced to go back yep it WILL happen and the same morally indignant will cry foul yet again.saying leave them be, its their country and nowt to do with us,sadly it is EVERYTHING to do with us if you want women kids and innocents to stop being slaughtered for a stone age ideology. And running the risk of a dictator getting WMD and letting loose on the west. If he thinks all his tribe will live the life after what has he got to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 About right but the gain to them is immense is it not? we according to some exploited the world and raped its produce under the guise of our Empire, in return we also gave security and in the most a stable life, then the pressure of the morally indignant was acceded to and we let them go on their own, only for them to turn into murderous cesspits with more corruption and inhuman treatment of the people than you could ever dream of,and then they said that was our fault for "creating" the corrupt state? you could not make it up, And now after pulling out and letting the barbarians in yet again we WILL be forced to go back yep it WILL happen and the same morally indignant will cry foul yet again.saying leave them be, its their country and nowt to do with us,sadly it is EVERYTHING to do with us if you want women kids and innocents to stop being slaughtered for a stone age ideology. KW I understand what you are saying KW but the West has sponsored and supplied many despots and given then the means to carry out their atrocities and the West has also killed and maimed hundreds of thousands of women and children with airstrikes. Without any war being declared. What I maintain is that we reap as we sow. For every 'terrorist' we kill they have family and friends who vow revenge on us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) About right but the gain to them is immense is it not? we according to some exploited the world and raped its produce under the guise of our Empire, in return we also gave security and in the most a stable life, then the pressure of the morally indignant was acceded to and we let them go on their own, only for them to turn into murderous cesspits with more corruption and inhuman treatment of the people than you could ever dream of,and then they said that was our fault for "creating" the corrupt state? you could not make it up, And now after pulling out and letting the barbarians in yet again we WILL be forced to go back yep it WILL happen and the same morally indignant will cry foul yet again.saying leave them be, its their country and nowt to do with us,sadly it is EVERYTHING to do with us if you want women kids and innocents to stop being slaughtered for a stone age ideology. KW In africa, south america, burma and the like, Women, kids and innocents are maimed, killed, tortured then maimed and killed, raped, gang raped, babies raped and god knows what else by the thousands every year.... we should get on our crusade horse and help them too right? and once we've gone in and killed a load of people, made some more enemies and left.... they'd all get along nicely... yeah right. Ah the good old British Empire, we basicily invaded, killed, took everything we could before the native populace mustered a response, arose up and chucked us out. We had no interest in providing a better life, it was pure greed. Or we held onto it for so long (by force...look at the indian uprisings) and only left once it was no longer acceptable for a so called modern nation to act as dictator over a foreign country. Edited June 17, 2014 by thepasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 In africa, south america, burma and the like, Women, kids and innocents are maimed, killed, tortured then maimed and killed, raped, gang raped, babies raped and god knows what else by the thousands every year.... we should get on our crusade horse and help them too right? and once we've gone in and killed a load of people, made some more enemies and left.... they'd all get along nicely... yeah right. Ah the good old British Empire, we basicily invaded, killed, took everything we could before the native populace mustered a response, arose up and chucked us out. We had no interest in providing a better life, it was pure greed. Or we held onto it for so long (by force...look at the indian uprisings) until it was no longer acceptable for a so called modern nation to act as dictator over a foreign country that we left. Agree,and often partitioned the country we were pulling out of so that civil war was inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) And running the risk of a dictator getting WMD and letting loose on the west. If he thinks all his tribe will live the life after what has he got to lose. A foreign dictator would never let loose a WMD at the west...unless provoked... it would be suicide and they know it. North Korea have Nuclear weapons (no ballistic missiles but thats not the only form of delivery), chemical and biological weapons.... probably one of the worst dictatorships in the world, they hate the west and yet you dont see them lobbing stuff at us. The Iranian state also have biological and chemical weapons, have done for a long time, the state disliked America more than anyone and once again still no WMD's being lobbed our way..... they may be radical but they're not totally kookoo crazy. Thats an historical reference, the new guy seems a little more level headed. If we poked that hornets nest we'd get some back... which is why we dont poke it. Edited June 17, 2014 by thepasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Ah the good old British Empire, we basicily invaded, killed, took everything we could before the native populace mustered a response, arose up and chucked us out. We had no interest in providing a better life, it was pure greed. Or we held onto it for so long (by force...look at the indian uprisings) and only left once it was no longer acceptable for a so called modern nation to act as dictator over a foreign country. Straight answer required were they better off or not? KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 The US is a nuclear power with WMD's and have so far invaded Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan and carried out airstrikes on Pakistan, Yemen, Lybia. They have sponsored Saddam Hussein, the Contras, the Taliban in various guises, the Mujahideen and the list goes on. I know where I consider the greatest threat to world peace to come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 yes, i remember another time Britain interfered and stood up to another evil dictator Adolf something or other The US is a nuclear power with WMD's and have so far invaded Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan and carried out airstrikes on Pakistan, Yemen, Lybia. They have sponsored Saddam Hussein, the Contras, the Taliban in various guises, the Mujahideen and the list goes on. I know where I consider the greatest threat to world peace to come from. very true and an argument used by many muslims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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