.22 rimfire accuracy???

[Catweazle]

think i have read post's on pw before when the mighty keyboard shooters claim clover leaf groups at 100 yards with their lr/hmr then someone comes along and suggest's a meet up for all to show off their skills only for them to go quiet

 

colin

They're all too busy head shooting bunnies at 139yds with Winchester Subs.

[colin lad]

They're all too busy head shooting bunnies at 139yds with Winchester Subs.

and open sights?

i feel i am quite a good shot until i read some post's on here then i feel so inadequate

 

colin

[1066]

and open sights?

i feel i am quite a good shot until i read some post's on here then i feel so inadequate

 

colin

[Underdog]

They're all too busy head shooting bunnies at 139yds with Winchester Subs.

If you are referring to me it was 133paces (IIRC) off hand scoped, the first shot missed.

 

Is this normal for me and my rifle? No, possible once in 50 try's!

 

The point of my post else where was based on my amazement, not and egotistical gloating of any magical powers imagined about my self!

[colin lad]

If you are referring to me it was 133paces (IIRC) off hand scoped, the first shot missed.

 

Is this normal for me and my rifle? No, possible once in 50 try's!

 

The point of my post else where was based on my amazement, not and egotistical gloating of any magical powers imagined about my self!

don't think the open sight comment was about you mate it was not it was aimed (pardon the pun) at the bob lee swaggers out there

 

colin

[kent]

True but range finders give you an accurate range to target, this , in turn with the distance your rifle is zeroed in at takes most if not all the guess work out. Its then still down to the shooter. I have mine zeroed in at 60 meters, works well for me, most of the time

 

They don't tell you anything other than the range and still under field conditions they can read off the wrong thing and mislead you. I have a maxim "if you need to ping it question your ability to make the shot". People have been shooting bunnies with .22 LR to 100 yards very effectively before such devices were invented.

Data from some free to download computer program, laser from e-bay and a cheap dial in scope from China, connected to a very capable rifle yet less than experienced driver are perhaps responsible for more shots gone bad than the cheapest of ammo

[kent]

The

 

 

The .22lr is an excellent round and has scarcely changed since the Cutty Sark was launched. I love shooting the .22lr, in competition and in the field. It's cheap, quiet and reasonably accurate and is the ideal round for small game and vermin control.

 

However - It does not have magic powers, it does not have laser like accuracy and has the ballistic coefficient of a turnip. The archaic heeled bullet design holds it back. It's dirty to shoot and the residue is abrasive and clogs up any semi-auto action. The requirement for exterior lubrication causes it's own problems, dirt and dust stick to it and it changes consistency with temperature.

 

When shot through the chronograph, rounds from the same box are often found to be inconsistent and it varies from batch to batch. These imperfections don't usually cause much concern at 50-70 yards but become increasingly a problem at extended distances.

 

This is a real life shooting at 100 yards, not idea conditions but at least it's "real world" groups rather than "internet" groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR7b3fx8kVk

 

The top two targets were shot under carefully controlled conditions in an indoor range from a solid bench and fixed rests by skilled shooters.

The bottom two targets were shot by me with a 6mm centrefire rifle. Both 5 shot groups, the first at 220yds and the second at 100 yds.

 

 

 

Your sako with the Eley produced a group average of 0.83" for those 5 groups and printed a very tidy 5 shot best in the point three range. I sat that represents what a decent .22LR can do fed favourable stuff at 100 yards.

Autos are best used by those who seem to need a lot of quick backup shots though This might become a chicken and egg thing though because a good bolt gun will generally give them a thrashing as regards inherent accuracy in my experience, custom or not

[kent]

It's as accurate as it needs to be for rabbits. We regularly head shoot them at around the 80yd mark (our game dealer wont take them any other way) and that's all the accuracy I need. I'm not really interested in MOA as I just shoot rabbits with my .22rf, not comp's. So long as they're humanely killed then that'll do for me.

 

Perhaps you should be, because that's the angle we use to measure accuracy of a rifle or its ammunition- the question basically posed in the thread. Remember we are talking a full MOA being a 1/60th of a single degree, roughly 1" at 100 yards 1/2" at 50 ! so its just how we explain rather than "bunnies head", not mumbo jumbo or only related to target work. Bunnies head include the jaw? what if a guy only shoots other quarry etc?

 

If someone wishes to shoot further than 80 yards how might he extract the info he is looking for referencing a bunnies head? In theory (and it is just theory based on a measurement of angle) the gun and ammo should if it shoots 1/2" at 50 produce 2" at 200 yards (maybe that's a full Bunny head?). I should like to meet the bloke who can call his shot so good to place single shots onto a 2" target at two hundred yards though

[Old farrier]

 

They don't tell you anything other than the range and still under field conditions they can read off the wrong thing and mislead you. I have a maxim "if you need to ping it question your ability to make the shot". People have been shooting bunnies with .22 LR to 100 yards very effectively before such devices were invented.

Data from some free to download computer program, laser from e-bay and a cheap dial in scope from China, connected to a very capable rifle yet less than experienced driver are perhaps responsible for more shots gone bad than the cheapest of ammo

But the less than experienced driver with cheap ammo and a Chinese dial in scope

Is at least showing the for though to check the distance and take a bit of time on the shot

 

Any aid is a good thing for a novice

As experience grows you learn how to read the wind and conditions

Or don't they measure your 100 yard range that you get the 1 Moa at and put up wind markers

All the best

[Catweazle]

If you are referring to me it was 133paces (IIRC) off hand scoped, the first shot missed.

 

Is this normal for me and my rifle? No, possible once in 50 try's!

 

The point of my post else where was based on my amazement, not and egotistical gloating of any magical powers imagined about my self!

Nope, nothing to do with any of your posts, just a number that popped into my head from some old thread on .22 range.

[kent]

 

Now come on Kent - Do you really believe that?

 

5 shot 1" groups do come up, but they are far from standard. By making a claim like that, many shooters, who may be new to the game, will think they have a problem when their standard .22 sporting rifle, with a mediocre 3lb trigger on a wobbly Chinese bipod and local Hollow Point ammunition will only put 5 shots into 2" at 100yds.

 

I think there are very few genuine .22lr 5 shot x 1"/100 yds rifle/ammunition combination out there if you don't discount the flyers.

 

Just take a look at the Eley test results. These are record groups, top quality match rifles, clamped in vices in concrete benches with the best of the best ammunition.

 

13.9 mm at 50 mtrs., that's not far off half an inch. Yes I know we can all do better groups but you can't just select 5 lucky shots and call it "standard".

http://www.eley.co.uk/en/test-ranges/

 

Scroll down these targets and see what the ammunition you are using can do in perfect conditions.

 

 

http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/bl100.html

 

 

Yes I do and it really does matter matching ammo to the gun in question when the ranges get longer (as does state of the bore), we are not talking about any shooter nor are we talking any cheap Chinese gun with cacky ammo.

 

I have my own 50 yard range 20 ft outside my back door and much extended facilities outside my front and spend a fair bit of time testing and setting up .22 LR. Conditions are very relevant but it don't take a gun vice and tunnel rage to shoot good, look at 1000 yards results (its not fluke when guys place 5 shots from a .308 at 10" from a FTR class rifle on a bipod) Don't even go to BR records. So why not a .22 LR ?

 

Heck I shot a target a few months back for an article on the .22 LR and shot 50, 75 and 100 yards groups one straight after the other. Just a casual thing I didn't get MOA at 100 that time (in a single take) but got well under it at 75 and it wasn't too far out. I was only illustrating drop and got the bonus of showing wind drifting progressively with increasing range as I held centre true for each group (though dialled the scope high so I didn't fill the aim point with holes at 50). I think as it was windy I might be excused not getting sub MOA on each group consecutively? The kit? a CZ 452 varmint I have had for years that's only been breathed on as regards modifications a 6x42 scope and SK subs ( I know this gun will shoot certain match ammo a bit tighter still)

[1066]

 

 

 

 

look at 1000 yards results (its not fluke when guys place 5 shots from a .308 at 10" from a FTR class rifle on a bipod) Don't even go to BR records. So why not a .22 LR ?

The reason is you have no control of the quality of the ammunition with a .22lr - any competent 1000yd shooter will be using carefully prepared handloads.

 

Heck I shot a target a few months back for an article on the .22 LR and shot 50, 75 and 100 yards groups one straight after the other. Just a casual thing I didn't get MOA at 100 that time (in a single take) but got well under it at 75 and it wasn't too far out. I was only illustrating drop and got the bonus of showing wind drifting progressively with increasing range as I held centre true for each group (though dialled the scope high so I didn't fill the aim point with holes at 50). I think as it was windy I might be excused not getting sub MOA on each group consecutively?

 

Isn't this the point, it's inconsistent. Sometimes you do sometimes you don't. You can't just plop three shots down range and say me/my rifle/ammunition can shoot 1 moa. If you were then to make it a 5 shot group it might well be 2moa. Remember you must count the flyers as well.

 

I know you know this Kent - I'm not trying to wind you up

 

With centrefire ammunition at reasonable ranges there is often a fair relation between moa and distance. A 1" group at 100 yards with, say a .243 will often translate into a 2 inch group at 200yds and, in good condition a 3 inch group at 300yds. As distance increases this relationship breaks down, slight variations in velocity will result in vertical stringing. Once you start getting towards the extreme accuracy range, say 900-1200 yards that 1 moa rapidly starts to fall apart even if you disregard any wind factors.

 

This is what happens with the .22lr but of course at much shorter ranges. Shooting 1moa at 50 yards = easy. Shooting 1moa at 100yds = Not so easy. Shooting 1moa at 150 yards = more luck than judgement. (Here, when talking about shooting the .22lr in the field we are usually talking about a reasonable quality sporting rifle and subsonic HP ammunition)

 

I was out early this morning and shot two 5 shot 100yds groups with Eley HP subs. The conditions weren't perfect but very good. I was shooting a Sako Finnfire with heavy varmint barrel from a solid position.

First group - 1.8 inches, second group just exactly 1 inch. The first three shots of the second group "clover leaved", if I had just shot those three shots and stopped I could claim "my rifle shoots Eley HP subs into .25moa" but you and I both know 1.5" would be nearer the truth.

 

What I'm saying is that these wild claims of accuracy for the .22lr, when using HP hunting ammunition in a sporting rifle need be based on fact.

 

Many new and inexperienced shooters read these forums, very often it's their main source of information and I'm sure many have the impression that, as soon as they have their FAC, they can pop of down to their local RFD, pick up a CZ and start head shooting rabbits at 100 yards and beyond.

 

What I would like to see is someone post a 100yd target, say an A4 sheet of paper, with four consecutively shot groups of five shots each and all groups measure 1" centre to centre. Not disregarding flyers and pulled shots. I know I could do it with a centrefire, I might occasionally do it with a .22 match rifle and match ammunition but it would be pure luck if I did it with a sporting rifle and HP subsonic ammunition.

 

10 shots at 25 yards

100yds/Eley HP.

[Catweazle]

1066, respect for honest reporting. So many posts on here claim groups that would win a benchrest competition.

[davesw]

I think .22 is good for up to 100 yards no problem people get to caught up with a .17 or centre fire because it requires no skill just point and shoot

[davesw]

Target shooters generally fall apart in the field don't dismiss a .22very usefull quiet calibre

[kent]

 

I know you know this Kent - I'm not trying to wind you up

 

With centrefire ammunition at reasonable ranges there is often a fair relation between moa and distance. A 1" group at 100 yards with, say a .243 will often translate into a 2 inch group at 200yds and, in good condition a 3 inch group at 300yds. As distance increases this relationship breaks down, slight variations in velocity will result in vertical stringing. Once you start getting towards the extreme accuracy range, say 900-1200 yards that 1 moa rapidly starts to fall apart even if you disregard any wind factors.

 

This is what happens with the .22lr but of course at much shorter ranges. Shooting 1moa at 50 yards = easy. Shooting 1moa at 100yds = Not so easy. Shooting 1moa at 150 yards = more luck than judgement. (Here, when talking about shooting the .22lr in the field we are usually talking about a reasonable quality sporting rifle and subsonic HP ammunition)

 

I was out early this morning and shot two 5 shot 100yds groups with Eley HP subs. The conditions weren't perfect but very good. I was shooting a Sako Finnfire with heavy varmint barrel from a solid position.

First group - 1.8 inches, second group just exactly 1 inch. The first three shots of the second group "clover leaved", if I had just shot those three shots and stopped I could claim "my rifle shoots Eley HP subs into .25moa" but you and I both know 1.5" would be nearer the truth.

 

What I'm saying is that these wild claims of accuracy for the .22lr, when using HP hunting ammunition in a sporting rifle need be based on fact.

 

Many new and inexperienced shooters read these forums, very often it's their main source of information and I'm sure many have the impression that, as soon as they have their FAC, they can pop of down to their local RFD, pick up a CZ and start head shooting rabbits at 100 yards and beyond.

 

What I would like to see is someone post a 100yd target, say an A4 sheet of paper, with four consecutively shot groups of five shots each and all groups measure 1" centre to centre. Not disregarding flyers and pulled shots. I know I could do it with a centrefire, I might occasionally do it with a .22 match rifle and match ammunition but it would be pure luck if I did it with a sporting rifle and HP subsonic ammunition.

 

10 shots at 25 yards

100yds/Eley HP.

 

Please don't put words I my mouth, The "accuracy tunnel" you speak of is debatable with both RF and centrefire (sometimes and I am yet to be convinced 100% why a gun shoots better further out - weird but you do see it),

 

Its about the gun and ammo combination on the ability to group, the shooter to hit the mark. It takes years to learn how to call shots really well and most importantly the humility to know when things are not right to try.

 

Its hard to communicate on this without sounding like bragging or talking specifics