if you were me

[propercartridges]

What have you done about the legal side of selling cartridges directly, but not face to face? I know it was a problem for Just Cartridges when they started and I believe it took a bit of sorting out. There is a thread on here about it:

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/245488-rules-on-storage-access-to-cartridges/page-3?hl=%2Bcharles+%2Bbull&do=findComment&comment=2154796

 

Post #44 and onwards are the most relevant.

its all done as long as I don't sell the neq exceeding 15 kilos per person so for average with my loads about 10,000 carts and seeing cert like just cartridges 2 or 3 people can share the same pallet and share the carts thanks for your concern but yes on the same lines as just cartridges its called fair trading and if they can do it so can I thanks george

[rbrowning2]

its all done as long as I don't sell the neq exceeding 15 kilos per person so for average with my loads about 10,000 carts and seeing cert like just cartridges 2 or 3 people can share the same pallet and share the carts thanks for your concern but yes on the same lines as just cartridges its called fair trading and if they can do it so can I thanks george

 

George,

 

Just dot every I and cross every t as fair trading rules do not let you operate outside the law with regards to other laws or legislation for example I think every time you sell shot gun cartridges you need to see the buyers shotgun certificate as I understand it, which I am sure you do.

Edited August 16, 2014 by rbrowning2

[propercartridges]

George,

 

Just dot every I and cross every t as fair trading rules do not let you operate outside the law with regards to other laws or legislation for example I think every time you sell shot gun cartridges you need to see the buyers shotgun certificate as I understand it, which I am sure you do.

go to just cartridges web and look at how to order I have already had my solicitor and the police what I must do end of story please don't divert the thread I am sure if I am breaking the law it would have been told after the meeting at renewal by the concerned authorities how come I person may collect for another and it is not the cert holder?? thanks George

[FoxyChris]

Whilst I don't know enough about the cartridges themselves to be able to comment I do know about websites. Yours looks good but there simply isn't enough information on there. The first thing people will do once they've spoken to you is go away and load up your website. There need to be further pages that show photos and the breakdown of each cartridge, technical information and more importantly why you are better than the others. There is also no indication where I can buy them. Most people would be reluctant to phone you so you need to get some website designing done :-)

Edited August 16, 2014 by FoxyChris

[rbrowning2]

go to just cartridges web and look at how to order I have already had my solicitor and the police what I must do end of story please don't divert the thread I am sure if I am breaking the law it would have been told after the meeting at renewal by the concerned authorities how come I person may collect for another and it is not the cert holder?? thanks George

 

Sorry I was not trying to divert the thread just reply to your post. you look to have done your home work with regards to this.

 

Re above in red, it is explained in post below from post #44 as suggested by ColinF above.

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/245488-rules-on-storage-access-to-cartridges/page-3?hl=%2Bcharles+%2Bbull&do=findComment&comment=2154796

 

May be worth starting a new topic if other members can add more.

[ChrisAsh]

George

 

My last purchase at my groop was £160 for 1000 28 gram no 7.5 clay lead, I woul imagine we could buy 6000, could you match the price delivered to norfolk?

[propercartridges]

can you pm me please

 

George

My last purchase at my groop was £160 for 1000 28 gram no 7.5 clay lead, I woul imagine we could buy 6000, could you match the price delivered to norfolk?

can you e mail me with your details phone location ect thanks George just back from scotland

[ColinF]

go to just cartridges web and look at how to order I have already had my solicitor and the police what I must do end of story please don't divert the thread I am sure if I am breaking the law it would have been told after the meeting at renewal by the concerned authorities how come I person may collect for another and it is not the cert holder?? thanks George

If your ordering and delivery processes have been approved by the police, you should make more of it. Get a how to order page on your website etc. I think it would be a good selling point?

[neutron619]

Just want to add a +1 for whoever it was that suggested going for some sensible small gauge loads earlier on this thread. #6 shot in a .410 (which is all my local shop sell) is pretty useless as it's far too big (and what use is 9 grams of #6 for goodness sake? - you get a pattern with about 3 feet between each pellet at 3 yards :-S), but the 14g of #8 or #7½ they mentioned would actually give a good compromise between pattern and energy.

 

The same is true of 28 gauge loads. There are very few sub-20-gram loads around for 28 gauge and most have shot which is too big for the gauge. Hardly anyone seems to stock the few that are made but they all have the 25g+ loads which cost £9+ per box and moan that they never seem to sell any (except to muggins here, who hasn't got a press to roll his own yet). Why use a 28ga for 25-28g of shot? Just buy a 12 gauge! Much better to have a couple of decent shells - maybe 14-17g of #7/#7½/#8 which would do just fine for both clays and birds out to reasonable ranges and 21-22g of #6 for driven shooting. Even out to 50 yards, you don't need more than that with a good choke.

Edited August 19, 2014 by neutron619

[propercartridges]

Just want to add a +1 for whoever it was that suggested going for some sensible small gauge loads earlier on this thread. #6 shot in a .410 (which is all my local shop sell) is pretty useless as it's far too big (and what use is 9 grams of #6 for goodness sake? - you get a pattern with about 3 feet between each pellet at 3 yards :-S), but the 14g of #8 or #7½ they mentioned would actually give a good compromise between pattern and energy.

 

The same is true of 28 gauge loads. There are very few sub-20-gram loads around for 28 gauge and most have shot which is too big for the gauge. Hardly anyone seems to stock the few that are made but they all have the 25g+ loads which cost £9+ per box and moan that they never seem to sell any (except to muggins here, who hasn't got a press to roll his own yet). Why use a 28ga for 25-28g of shot? Just buy a 12 gauge! Much better to have a couple of decent shells - maybe 14-17g of #7/#7½/#8 which would do just fine for both clays and birds out to reasonable ranges and 21-22g of #6 for driven shooting. Even out to 50 yards, you don't need more than that with a good choke.

mr nutron can you phone me 07714 323 909 thanks George can help on 28 gauge

[neutron619]

mr nutron can you phone me 07714 323 909 thanks George can help on 28 gauge

 

I can, but I think I'd be wasting your time - right now I don't have any money to spend on carts. Just wanted to say that I agreed with the earlier poster.

[bucksshooter]

As said before i think getting a stall at the game fairs would be a good way to go. Im sure with your good prices you would be sure to sell some and begin to get your name known and seen by the shooting community

[figgy]

Mr neutron I shoot a 28 bore gun and have tried a few carts from 24 g 7 shot and 23 24 25 gram 6 shot and the 25 gram pure gold 6 shot carts are very good out to 12 bore ranges on pheasants. The others can hit sixty yard plus clays easily with the larger loads they have enough in the pattern.

 

The recoil is next to non. So little in fact the gun can be shot one handed, must be different powders to 12 bore carts as every 28 bore cart I've tried has been very soft shooting.

 

Agree being able to load your own to suit your needs would be great.

 

George's 24 g 6 shot are very good, I bought a slab and have used a few boxes worth.

 

Figgy

[neutron619]

Mr neutron I shoot a 28 bore gun and have tried a few carts from 24 g 7 shot and 23 24 25 gram 6 shot and the 25 gram pure gold 6 shot carts are very good out to 12 bore ranges on pheasants. The others can hit sixty yard plus clays easily with the larger loads they have enough in the pattern.

 

The recoil is next to non. So little in fact the gun can be shot one handed, must be different powders to 12 bore carts as every 28 bore cart I've tried has been very soft shooting.

 

Agree being able to load your own to suit your needs would be great.

 

George's 24 g 6 shot are very good, I bought a slab and have used a few boxes worth.

 

Figgy

 

I quite agree with you about the Pure Golds - I've been using the 25g/#6 in mine and they are as you say, effective. I just went to get my 28ga fitted the other week and I was using these (I had nothing else) and as you say, no trouble with long clays. (45 yards was as far as we shot, but I've no doubt they'll do 60yd if the targets are there to be attempted.)

.

The only trouble with them is that in my gun they kick a fair bit. That's not down to the cartridge though - it's the gun, which is a Yildiz with an Aluminium alloy frame (I think) so what would be a nice 6¾-7lb gun if it were made of steel is actually only just 6lbs, which does make the recoil a bit punchy. To me, recoil in a 28ga seems silly - why buy a 28ga and then shoot a cartridge that makes it uncomfortable? I could put 25g of #6 down a 12 gauge tube and not notice it at all, which takes away my reason for having a 28ga. Anyway, that's why I'd like a nice light load or two for it.

.

Historically, ¾oz was what they eventually settled on as the "high brass" load for the 28ga (and 5/8oz for the "low brass" load) and I like the idea of running cartridges that match what the gauge was designed for, so cartridges as described in my last post is what I'd like to use. Gamebore do a 16g/#7 load, which I've been trying and failing to get my hands on for some time, and Eley do a 21g/#6 load which seems to work brilliantly on the clays (yet to test it on the birds, but I've no doubt whatsoever that it'll perform). Again though, local supply is intermittent and I often end up having to order weeks in advance.

 

As I said above, there aren't many "light" (or arguably "normal") loads for the 28ga available to me, so if George were to produce a light loading that would work comfortably in my Y-gun then I'd certainly try it. I've no doubt that his cartridges are good and well-made, but we've each got our own ways and preferences, so right now, a 24g/#6 load doesn't quite tick the box. I know from people whose opinion I respect though, that if you use a tight choke, 21g of #6 will give a pattern suitable for all normal range birds and - because it's only 21g - the minimum of recoil. It's "sufficient" rather than "generous" with the pattern, but it's what I'm after. We all talk about shooting 50 yard birds with X, Y or Z cartridge, but most of them are really 30 yards and under anyway, so it'll probably do.

[Guest cookoff013]

this thread seems to have gone pear shaped.

 

recoil is the relationship between speed of payload, weight of payload and weight of gun. there may be some other factors, but i`m not sure, as recoil can be measured using a cip rig and can give the maximum recordable recoil in Newton/seconds (n/s). i`ve loaded up similar shells, 24g steel and 24g lead, shot them out the same speed. recoil numbers come back identical. whether the total recoil energy is recorded or the maximum as there is some recoil duration....

 

i havent even bothered to run the shells side by side, the lead load is snappy not really used the steel.

 

if the speeds and payload are identical through different shot media, then i`m more than confident that would translate again through the gauges.... i think,

 

by far speed is the most influential factor, my subsonic series of shells comparing 1oz and 1,1/8oz subsonic loads have near identical speeds, and the recoil is approx 11% more (or so...) although it cant be overly argued that reducing the speed of shells can have huge reduction in recoil.

 

as shotguns pretty much hit around 1300fps average, so knocking off 100fps is significant (just under 10%) thats the common sense element.

 

i can put 32g #6 down 12g tubes and not cause me any concern. especially at 1000fps or so. the 28 gram loads even more so,

 

now, we can do 2 different things to reduce recoil, shoot slower loads (european loads always gravitate between 1300fps.)

or reduce payloads.

 

both have an effect, but the speed thing still maintains a positive issue with patterns (actually shotcounts, pattern etc)

reduced payload can be an issue as shot count is knocked off, meaning thinner patterns at any range.

 

as for most clay targets are shot at 30yards then reduced payload may benefit, where shooting game is involved getting enough pellets too and through the target is the game at x distance..

 

 

i`ve shot rabbits at some distance with 36g #2s and #4s and i can honestly say they are a different experience. i have shot 1.5oz BB at game too. but those distances were not pushed at all.

[neutron619]

this thread seems to have gone pear shaped.

 

It would appear so, but I'm only agreeing because I've no idea whether you're replying to me or someone else.

 

If you were replying to me, I'm guessing that the important point I may not have made is that my 12 gauge weighs 8lbs and my 28 gauge 6lbs, so all things being equal, I get 33% more recoil in the 28ga. Hence my desire for some lighter loads.

 

I agree with you though - I don't need them - just would be nice is all. I'll go and shoot those 52g Fiocchi magnums and put up with it as well as the next bloke and I shoot 32g / #5 ordinarily and manage them fine, but there's no point in getting beaten up by your gun unless you have to, especially if that's one of the benefits of using a 28ga in the first place.

 

To return to the original topic: George - if you're thinking of making some light 28ga loads at some point, with sensible shot sizes in them, I'd definitely be interested in testing a few. My wife too, I expect: she's recoil shy, but if you did something like the 14-17g / #7½ clay load I suggested, I'd be able to get her down to the ground a lot more often. She won't shoot a 12ga - it kicks more than she's prepared to tolerate, even with a 21g cartridge, so it's 28ga, .410 or not at all.

Edited August 20, 2014 by neutron619

[Guest cookoff013]

i doubt that its 33% more recoil as the relationships probably not linear or representative of these weight numbers alone.

 

having a 21g 12gauge load going 1400-1500fps is recipe for recoil, it`ll be snappy. i can compare the recoil from a 24g lead / steel. also with my subsonic series, and my unpublished stuff. some unpublish stuff passed, some didnt ie statistial fail. so i have a huge amount of data to chew through. i can tell you there is most certainly way more recoil in a normal 24g load than a 28g subsonic or 32g subsonic...

 

if i get the correlation from hull, the 28gram subsonics recoil less than 21gram normal loads.!

 

28gauge

http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/gameclay28.htm - low recoil at 1 and a half squares of recoil number....

 

12gauge

http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/subsonic.htm

subsonic only having half a square of recoil....

 

12gauge 21gram

http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/compx.htm

one square of recoil.

 

what a square is representative of i dont know, but i can bet its not a linear relationship.

so the 1 square is really low..

 

http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/profibreb.htm#exactline

pro 1 being 3 and a half squares of recoil.....

 

and thats a standard sporting load.....

 

so maybe try your wife on a cartridge that recoils (by minimal investigation) 50% less than 21g compx ?

[neutron619]

i doubt that its 33% more recoil as the relationships probably not linear or representative of these weight numbers alone.

 

Indeed. I recognised this when I said "all [other] things being equal" above. I suspect the a component of F = ma probably varies significantly with powder burn rate as well as attained muzzle velocity, giving the apparently "non-linear" relationship you describe.

 

A subsonic load may be the way forward for my wife.

 

For the sake of others reading this thread, I believe we should leave it there and let it get back on topic.

[Guest cookoff013]

 

Indeed. I recognised this when I said "all [other] things being equal" above. I suspect the a component of F = ma probably varies significantly with powder burn rate as well as attained muzzle velocity, giving the apparently "non-linear" relationship you describe.

 

A subsonic load may be the way forward for my wife.

 

For the sake of others reading this thread, I believe we should leave it there and let it get back on topic.

 

agreed !

[pestcontrol1]

 

 

 

For the sake of others reading this thread, I believe we should leave it there and let it get back on topic.

what was the topic again i have forgotten now

 

A few years back i shot a 28 gauge for about 8 years with a home loaded 19g and 21g in a 70 mm hull and a 6 point crimp even the 19g would kill all normal range driven birds if i remember correctly the shot size was 7 & 6 recoil was very little shot through a 1/2 choke in a light miroku 30" 28 bore

[aris]

FWIW I have 16 gram 28ga #6 fibre shells from Eley. I paid around £7 a box, and I shoot them through a 12ga using an adapter. If they didn't go bang I would not know it had discharged - zero recoil - but that is through a heavy gun.

While these are not mass market cartridges like clay loads - they do fit into a niche where the market leaders appear to be making some above average margin. Ripe for exploitation George? It sounds to me like your USP is keen pricing for the volume niche products.

Edited August 20, 2014 by aris

[neutron619]

FWIW I have 16 gram 28ga #6 fibre shells from Eley. I paid around £7 a box, and I shoot them through a 12ga using an adapter. If they didn't go bang I would not know it had discharged - zero recoil - but that is through a heavy gun.

 

While these are not mass market cartridges like clay loads - they do fit into a niche where the market leaders appear to be making some above average margin. Ripe for exploitation George? It sounds to me like your USP is keen pricing for the volume niche products.

 

Well - I implied it above and I'll say it now. If a major cartridge manufacturer like George appears to be is willing to take a risk and substantially back the small and less-used gauges (e.g. .410, 28 and 16 - maybe even 10?) there is a possibility that they could re-shape the market to their advantage. The cycle of "I don't use an XYZ because I can't get cartridges for XYZ" / "I don't make cartridges for XYZ because nobody uses them" with all three of those gauges could be broken with some decent, affordable loads.

 

The 16 gauge used to be as popular as the 12 or the 20 I think. The 28 is making a comeback, but if we didn't have to pay £9-10/box for decent cartridges it would do that a lot faster. The .410 has always needed something more imaginative than mediocre loads of nothing but #6 shot (I exaggerate, but you take my point). There's a margin on all of those to work with and if you're successful, you could actually change the shape of the market somewhat towards what you're producing. I'd love to own a 16 bore one day (it just seems like a nice idea) but there's not a single dedicated clay load for it, so how do I practice if the club says I can't shoot anything bigger than #7½? Given affordable cartridges, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like to run a 16 gauge, either for the novelty, or for the good compromise between the 12 and the 20 it offers. Maybe it's only me.

Edited August 20, 2014 by neutron619

[propercartridges]

this thread seems to have gone pear shaped.

 

recoil is the relationship between speed of payload, weight of payload and weight of gun. there may be some other factors, but i`m not sure, as recoil can be measured using a cip rig and can give the maximum recordable recoil in Newton/seconds (n/s). i`ve loaded up similar shells, 24g steel and 24g lead, shot them out the same speed. recoil numbers come back identical. whether the total recoil energy is recorded or the maximum as there is some recoil duration....

 

i havent even bothered to run the shells side by side, the lead load is snappy not really used the steel.

 

if the speeds and payload are identical through different shot media, then i`m more than confident that would translate again through the gauges.... i think,

 

by far speed is the most influential factor, my subsonic series of shells comparing 1oz and 1,1/8oz subsonic loads have near identical speeds, and the recoil is approx 11% more (or so...) although it cant be overly argued that reducing the speed of shells can have huge reduction in recoil.

 

as shotguns pretty much hit around 1300fps average, so knocking off 100fps is significant (just under 10%) thats the common sense element.

 

i can put 32g #6 down 12g tubes and not cause me any concern. especially at 1000fps or so. the 28 gram loads even more so,

 

now, we can do 2 different things to reduce recoil, shoot slower loads (european loads always gravitate between 1300fps.)

or reduce payloads.

 

both have an effect, but the speed thing still maintains a positive issue with patterns (actually shotcounts, pattern etc)

reduced payload can be an issue as shot count is knocked off, meaning thinner patterns at any range.

 

as for most clay targets are shot at 30yards then reduced payload may benefit, where shooting game is involved getting enough pellets too and through the target is the game at x distance..

 

 

i`ve shot rabbits at some distance with 36g #2s and #4s and i can honestly say they are a different experience. i have shot 1.5oz BB at game too. but those distances were not pushed at all.

hey cookie stick with me trying to sell cartridges instead of trying to baffle everybody with science thank you george

George. Why not tie in with these guys? http://www.pellpax.co.uk/

They cover the country them selves delivering Guns out of Norfolk. No reason why you couldn't' hook up with them and get them to deliver for you

thanks for that mr jabb on the list for tomorrow thanks george