fenboy Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 That's really interesting - I have no experience (least of all with labs). Could you appeal to his belly perhaps? No , tried and failed at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedd-wyn Posted August 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Bloody hell, I shouldn't have posted this thread and tempted fate..... Just had the worst training session EVER Probably me still hungover from the bank holiday and the dog picking up on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Always the way!!!! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.w. Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Hedd you no better than that only look forward never look back that's a fine dog you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedd-wyn Posted August 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Diolch yn fawr E.W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Bloody hell, I shouldn't have posted this thread and tempted fate..... Just had the worst training session EVER Probably me still hungover from the bank holiday and the dog picking up on that Don't worry it will all come good hedd. I had a set back yesterday with my youngest, all OK today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 The trainer found him hard work , it got to the stage where I was just not prepared to keep shelling money out on the dog , so he will be what he will be and I will have to live with it. He will come on the marsh this year as he is good in the water and has a decent enough nose and anything is better than nothing out there , unfortunately my cocker now has cancer so his working days are over . I am gutted the way this one has turned out to be honest , hopefully he will prove to be decent fowling companion though. I am not a fan of giving up but a move sideways can transform some dogs. An independent dog who wants to think for himself can be an asset on the marsh when its too dark to direct to the fall, I have seen plenty that would get put out of any trial within minutes but were goldust on the saltings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 I dont have enough time But the biggest problem is retrieving , he just will bring nothing straight back , he will either stand off with it , run around with it or come within a foot or two and then leg it if I go towards him . After a while I can coax him right in but as soon as I move my hand a inch he just legs it again , he will not have eye contact with me when he has a retrieve . Put him on a light check lead and he is better , I had him trailing one for months, take it off and its straight back to square one , tried going away from him , lying down and calling him in , food treats for return etc, etc ,etc nothing has worked . Sounds like too much retrieving and not enough here means here. the more you work on it the worse it gets? I am very surprised a pro couldn't get this cracked. I had a similar issue with Widgeon and my young lab nothing else just the odd widgeon- weird! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedd-wyn Posted August 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Sounds like too much retrieving and not enough here means here. the more you work on it the worse it gets? I am very surprised a pro couldn't get this cracked. I had a similar issue with Widgeon and my young lab nothing else just the odd widgeon- weird! Funny you should say that, I used to shoot with guy and his lab would chew widgeons to bits on retrieves. It wouldn't do this with any other bird or game, just widgeons. Appart from that it was a cracking dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Funny you should say that, I used to shoot with guy and his lab would chew widgeons to bits on retrieves. It wouldn't do this with any other bird or game, just widgeons. Appart from that it was a cracking dog. I know of one that would swallow teal (just teal) and other that liked goose breast just a rare time. I think more do it than get spoken of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millomite Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Fenboy, how is the dog on recall, does he come straight into your everytime without fail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Fenboy, how is the dog on recall, does he come straight into your everytime without fail? No , again I have tried just about everything , check lead for months great while he was on it , back to square one as soon as its off , food treats worked for a while but not in the long term , turning and walking away does not work , have a job to correct him as his solution to possible telling off is to leg it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millomite Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Thats what you need to get back to, basic obedience in the garden at first. If he doesn't come straight to you, get after him. The other alternative is place boards, which have worked for me, but not everybody agrees with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wj939 Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 In no way suggesting it's a quick fix nor that the other methods would not work. But obviously there is a safety issue in being able to stop and recall a dog well, one we all recognise, but have you thought of trying an electric collar? Not a fan myself but can see the benefit when used sensibly and responsibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.w. Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Thats what you need to get back to, basic obedience in the garden at first. If he doesn't come straight to you, get after him. The other alternative is place boards, which have worked for me, but not everybody agrees with them It matters not what people think, if it work then you have hit the nail on its head. The end product ends up the same then that's job done, there nothing cast in stone when it comes to training dogs, you did good fair play to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Thats what you need to get back to, basic obedience in the garden at first. If he doesn't come straight to you, get after him. The other alternative is place boards, which have worked for me, but not everybody agrees with them His obedience in the garden is pretty good really , "getting after him " as you say is one of the difficulties I have with him , have him on a check lead and he is just about perfect , take it off and if he plays up and I go towards him he will just run , I have a large garden and even in there I cannot get hold of him . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 In no way suggesting it's a quick fix nor that the other methods would not work. But obviously there is a safety issue in being able to stop and recall a dog well, one we all recognise, but have you thought of trying an electric collar? Not a fan myself but can see the benefit when used sensibly and responsibly. I have thought about it yes , I am really loath to try it though , I can see where it may break the cycle of him running when he needs correction but the thought of using one does not sit well with me to be honest . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millomite Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 If you're having difficulty getting after him then it may be time to change tact and try something more positive. People bash place boards, and I was sceptical at first, but if you start at the very beginning with them, they do work in conditioning your dog to coming to a particular place. Your dog sounds like a good candidate for them, in terms of to begin with it is all 'on lead' work, and if you take your time with it, I'm pretty sure it'd cure it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wj939 Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 I have thought about it yes , I am really loath to try it though , I can see where it may break the cycle of him running when he needs correction but the thought of using one does not sit well with me to be honest . I'd be tempted to try if only to see if it breaks the cycle. Who knows might transform the dog completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crowdie2013 Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 No where near it im afraid. He just will not walk to heal consistently, is easily distracted and wants to just play with other dogs. His nose is straight down on a scent and he takes off and wont recall. He will eventually come back and sit but its when he wants. I had him out this week up the field and he was fine, just sitting with me in the hedge. I shot a rook and he was really hesitant at picking it up. He walked home carrying it correctly and is very soft mouthed so that's a positive at least but no way is ready for this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Do not use an e-collar for this under any circumstance, your inadvertently likely to teach aversion on and to retrieving. Remember never punish a dog with something in its mouth and never punish one when training recall. You can beat practically anything into a dog if your that way inclined ( I am not with the exception of stockbreaking) ) but it has to want to come back, words like "catch up with it" indicate snatching and grabbing on your end. If this rings a bell there lies the start of this issue but its been compounded by less than great recall. Retrieving is just recall with something in the dogs mouth, the dog heads back to you right? so your over half way there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 I'd be tempted to try if only to see if it breaks the cycle. Who knows might transform the dog completely. Yep it might I fear by it no longer wanting to pick it up or by it anticipating the shock and bearing down with a tight grip on what its carrying. All far too risky a tactic. E-collars are quick correction to put a dog off a undesired reaction to certain stimulus and can work like lightning IN the wrong as well as the right way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Do not use an e-collar for this under any circumstance, your inadvertently likely to teach aversion on and to retrieving. Remember never punish a dog with something in its mouth and never punish one when training recall. You can beat practically anything into a dog if your that way inclined ( I am not with the exception of stockbreaking) ) but it has to want to come back, words like "catch up with it" indicate snatching and grabbing on your end. If this rings a bell there lies the start of this issue but its been compounded by less than great recall. Retrieving is just recall with something in the dogs mouth, the dog heads back to you right? so your over half way there Kent, at times a dog , any dog including yours no doubt needs a correction . How do you suggest this is done without going to the dog to do it , getting hold of the dog in the act , so therfore I have to "get" hold of it . I cannot do this as when the dog is playing up if I go to him he legs it , you cannot correct when he eventually come to you as it is after the fact . Its ok saying its something I have compounded but I disagree , that dog has spent a lot of time with a very well recommended trainer at a great cost to myself , a trainer I have seen you recommend by the way. He has not been able to get over the issue of the dog legging it when he knows he is going to be told off , and by telling off I do not mean beating . For instance with the stop whistle , if he does not stop as he should but decides to 30 yards further on if I go to him with intention of taking him back to the spot he should have stopped at he will just leg it , he knows he has done wrong and will not hang around to be put right. You are correct about not using a e collar for failing to come straight back with a retrieve , I can see where one would perhaps help with things like ignoring the stop though but as I say I am loath to try it. Funnily enough the dog is 100 % on the stop whistle if it involves a ball , if he knows he will have a ball thrown for him he will sit instantly but try as I might I have not been able to translate this into a good stop without a ball . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) If its the man I think I am surprised because I know him to be very straight talking. I am not against correction as I say I think it essential in stock breaking but I do feel on recall its often less than wise ( I might sometimes use a verbal "Oi!" but its not my own belief to correct rather to encourage via reward, food a stoke a nice word or even daft as it sounds being sent off to play). Your dog has given you the clue on the stop, use reward based training till the habit is such it don't need to think about it perhaps. I know some think this wrong but you can train a hawk to come back like this let alone a dog and you try chastising a hawk Like it is though nobody can train a dog on the internet, I should get on the phone to the guy who has seen you both together. If its who I think it is I bet he will get the dog delivering in a week - fortnight to him placed residential. Edited August 28, 2014 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) If you're having difficulty getting after him then it may be time to change tact and try something more positive. People bash place boards, and I was sceptical at first, but if you start at the very beginning with them, they do work in conditioning your dog to coming to a particular place. Your dog sounds like a good candidate for them, in terms of to begin with it is all 'on lead' work, and if you take your time with it, I'm pretty sure it'd cure itYou were sceptical at first?. You watch Openshaw use them and were sceptical?. Do you know something he doesn't?. How ftchs have you made up?. How many ftw have you got?. How many trials have you finished?.Isn't that like a lad on a skateboard saying Lewis Hamilton could have taken a corner a bit faster? Edited August 28, 2014 by cocker boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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