scotslad Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Alright I see there is a few plumbers/knowledgable people on here. At moment i'm just going throu planning and have bought an old ruin out in the sticks. Trying to get my head round the best heating/plumbing system but i seem to be going round in circles. It is a rip back to masonry job so got a blank canvas, so to speak. I was hoping/planning to put underfloor heating in and have masses off free firewood, so wanting to use a log burner to heat as much as possible. It is only a 2 bed room althou about 100m sq wihich is fairly big for a 2 bed (long story but ackward space) and will be insulated to modern standards I have looked at ur modern RHI/log gasification type boilers but ur looking at 10-15k just for a boiler and tank, possibly i should make the same money back in RHI payments but u won't know until ur house is completed and green deal assesed, plus it is a hell of a money for a 2 bed house My other idea was a log burner in front room connected to a hot water system, which is probably wot i will go for, But it means i will have to put the fire on in middle of summer to get hot water (no option of any solar becuase of trees and position of site) which i could probably live with Also wot would happen in a power cut can u still use the fire? or do u need electricity to work the pumps or can u put an old fashioned gravity fed system in? Would hate to be out of power in cold weather and not be able to put the fire on. Althou i understand the underfloor heating would not work without the pumps working, but it was just to use the log burner to heat the house with all the doors open The more i read the more complicated it all seems, which seems quite ironic when ur old fashioned back box system was so simple. Finally i'm thinking of trying to put in a rain water harvesting system as on private shared water supply. My neighbours say in a very dry summer pressure can drop but been fine this year and it has been dry Wot can u use rain water for? Is it just flushing toilets, washing machine and outside tap? Can u use it in showers? If just for flushing toilets and washing machines seems a lot of work for little water saved. I am going to have to put a filter and UV light on my main water anyway, could i put a 2nd filter/light in and do the same on the rain water to use it for showers/baths Cheers for any advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pistolgrip Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Just spent 30 mins writing a comment to have it disapear not doing it again p m me tomorrow and I'll see if I can point you in the right direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Cheers, nothing more annoying, happened to me a few times im the past. Murder esp when ur a 1 finger typer like me Is there not some sort of auto save thing on this forum? Think i managed to find something i lost once but no idea how i done it. Suppose wot i think i'm asking is the pros and cons of pressurised to un presserised systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 First, what are you planning to do with the house - stay in it for a very long time or turn it over to make money. - Lets assume the first. All pumped systems depend on electricity (obviously) and you can only be certain of electricity in rural areas if you have an adequate backup generator - candles are ok and a small generator would power a pump and a bit besides in extremis, You could double bank your immmersion heating to have it log burner heated as well by convection. Ground source heat pump and underfloor would be my choice, providing you can fully insulate the floor first. I would try to heat the bathroom with it as well. I would back up the floor heating with log burners in two rooms for extra toastie when needed and for Autumn when a fire is enough. Can you get a turbine on your land ? or possibly a water generation system - either would be better than nothing and the electric feed-in system would be helpful. In a rural spot, covering your bases twice is helpful and fires and underfloor mean one or other will work even when a catastophe strikes. It always seems better to me to spend as much as necessary to install multiple overlapping options when practicable but only if you plan to stay. JUST mo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pistolgrip Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Plumbing is quite complicated and it would take hours to talk you through the plus and minus of it all, look for 2 books vol 1 and vol 2 of G.J.Blowers Plumbing and mechanical services and you can't go wrong, tells you every thing you'll need to know. Also a look through the British standards and building regs is worth a shot also read up on your local water bylaws. Scottish regs differ to the ones in Wales and england. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutiny Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 If you fancy gasification/biomass have a look at Grant boilers, they're not as sophisticated as the likes of ETA or Windhager, but this is reflected in the price - around the £7000 mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 External log gasification linked to a large thermal store ( the store can be backed up with another or multiple other heat sources ). it is very important to get litres to KW correct for optimum use and remember its a sealed system ( too small or without the correct back-up safety measures and you have made a bomb). No possibility of a tank of these dimensions and weight being located upstairs so your talking pumped. The heat store is basically a big battery that runs your heating and the log boiler its charger! Not ideal or recommended for UFH as these need to operate 24 /7 at low level. For UFH consider GSHP as regards the "green stuff". Remember if you put in a batch burning system you have to stoke it at least daily - so it wont work while your away (hence a good reason to link in something like an Oil or LPG automated system ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 Some years ago when I was a lot younger we had a Rayburn stove but it was just an enclosed fire with a back burner not one that you can cook on with that we just had two radiators and a hot water tank upstairs with no pump later on we added a couple of rads downstairs so we had to have a pump fitted but if you do not have any rads downstairs you can get away without having a pump I think as the hot water will always end up in the tank upstairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutiny Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 Not ideal or recommended for UFH as these need to operate 24 /7 at low level. If he's planning on running a buffer/accumulator then it's ideal for UFH, you pipe up the flow and return to the buffer the opposite way to normal I.E flow at the top of the tank and return at the bottom. This way causes stratification and you essentially have bands of different temperature water from top to bottom as the cooler water sinks down. Then you can just connect in your zones (DHW, heating, UFH etc) as necessary to the outlets in the appropriate temperature band Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 To be perfectly blunt I wouldn't di ck about with under floor, gasification, renewables, heat pumps air or ground source on that size of property. You say you are back to basics, blank canvass, then insulation insulation insulation is the key, put in a wood burner for winter use, and a small calor or oil boiler for hot & cold and all round use. If you have the optimum levels of insulation it will be as cost efficient as anything and a wet system has the biggest advantage of all...its completely controllable.. If your worried about power cuts just get a small standby generator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Cheers for the advice so far, i will have to chase the local plumbers up, i made the school boy error of saying i was in now hurry (never say that to a tradesman) a couple of months ago and still never managed to get them up to the site yet. The reason i'm going for underfloor heating is my brothers boiler broke twice last winter, once in the middle of a real cold snap (porbably the only 1 we got) and it took about 4 days to even notice a different in the house temp as so much heat stored in the concertre of the floor, just like 1 massive storage heater. So it should keep house at a more constant temp, instead of it heating and cooling as radiators come on. The more i look into more modern systems the more needlessly complicated they seem, mibee i'm old fashioned but hate when things are needlessly complicated wether its cars, even some chainsaws now plug into a computer, absolutely crazy. The od gravity system is simplicity itself, but when u look at some of these log burners with valves here there and everywhere, just more to break down or not work right in the first place I'll get my finger out and chase the plumbers down as need to get my warrant in, think there is a very good chance they would not allow me a oil or gas boiler unless i also have some renewable's in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 If you are doing the house up to that degree then I will stir the pot a little. I've done a few up now though on mains gas so slightly different but when you pull up the floors and put in an insulated slab and insulate the rest to modern levels then the heat you have to put in to stay warm really drops. I looked at underfloor but the costs of keeping them ticking over looked far higher than a traditional system. Being slow to react to temperature changes is also a factor and we work during the day so don't need the house kept warm while we are out. I've not regretted using a conventional system plus log burner one bit, we use the conventional to heat the water and to top up when especially cold but the log burner does well on its own for cool evenings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Cheers for stirring Thats the thing my brother misses most is radiators to dry his gear if he has had a soaking at work. The only thing staying is the 4 walls, i've just had to rip up the floor prematurely to prop and brace the roof!! Always a sign of a quality house The trusses had decided to seperate at peaks and slide down each other didnae think roof would off lasted till the spring when i wanted to strip it. Fingers crossed now Gointg to chase the plumbers down, infact just of the phone to a local boy that installs log burners and he reccommended a gravity fed system and he said it would need a heat loss radiator anyway. I know it won't take a lot to heat the house, at the minuate i live in an older house i done up 12 odd years ago, i did put some polysterene insulation round all the outside walls but it was before insulation became such a big thing, i've still not got any heating on and just shut my bedroom window the other night as it was frosty that nite, althou still a few other windows open, don't like a warm house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 If he's planning on running a buffer/accumulator then it's ideal for UFH, you pipe up the flow and return to the buffer the opposite way to normal I.E flow at the top of the tank and return at the bottom. This way causes stratification and you essentially have bands of different temperature water from top to bottom as the cooler water sinks down. Then you can just connect in your zones (DHW, heating, UFH etc) as necessary to the outlets in the appropriate temperature band Missing the point Log gasification don't turn itself on again to top up To be perfectly blunt I wouldn't di ck about with under floor, gasification, renewables, heat pumps air or ground source on that size of property. You say you are back to basics, blank canvass, then insulation insulation insulation is the key, put in a wood burner for winter use, and a small calor or oil boiler for hot & cold and all round use. If you have the optimum levels of insulation it will be as cost efficient as anything and a wet system has the biggest advantage of all...its completely controllable.. If your worried about power cuts just get a small standby generator. I have to say I agree on many counts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pistolgrip Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Aye gravity fed hotwater pumped c/h heat leak in the porch can't argue with tradition but as been said don't skimp on the insulation it'll pay dividends down the line straw blocks are used in Norway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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