Reliable batteries for the T20

[Dave-G]

I take note of the sensible way we can have differing opinions chaps. The thread is about 18650 batteries for the T20 - which takes single cells. I think the worries are unfounded.

 

My dad was an electrician, so was my elder brother and a younger one worked at a TV repair company till he took on a marine avionics factory. I'm not as clever as them and have only hovered around the basics, but I've spent over five hours trying to find something on youtube that can be considered realistically dangerous with 18650's used in a torch - then removed to re-charge in li-ion chargers.

 

Could someone put up a believable or intelligent link for me? I'm honestly willing to heed proof but have only found sensationalist claptrap where:

 

Twits deliberately short through batteries with nails.

or

Remove the protective insulation covering and then the thicker insulation disc at the top and deliberately place wire between the + button and top of the negative can.

or

Wilfully pass unregulated currents into them from car batteries or other higher voltage charging kit instead of using a regulated and purpose made single circuit dedicated lithium ion charger.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Dave-G

[Davyo]

What beats me is,why dont the sellers of these T20's sell them with a quality batteries?You wouldnt expect to get a NM800 with **** batteries.

[Dave-G]

That's a good point Davey boy.

 

I Don't and won't sell batteries but if I did I would offer cheapo's and top quality ones because so many will buy one option rather than the other.

[ollie]

What beats me is,why dont the sellers of these T20's sell them with a quality batteries?You wouldnt expect to get a NM800 with **** batteries.

Exactly. I've had my nm800 over a year now & the batteries have never ran out during a lamping session.

[Davyo]

Exactly. I've had my nm800 over a year now & the batteries have never ran out during a lamping session.

I am going back to the NM800, never ever had any issues & batteries never dulled. I was an idiot for selling it.The T20 i initially thought was great, but its just unrelaible, the drivers and leds are a lottery & the batteries speak for themselves.The NM800 is a lot of money, i had the turbo,with red & an IR in a Spare neck & regret selling it on,i should of held onto it untill these T20's where tested.

[ollie]

I am going back to the NM800, never ever had any issues & batteries never dulled. I was an idiot for selling it.The T20 i initially thought was great, but its just unrelaible, the drivers and leds are a lottery & the batteries speak for themselves.The NM800 is a lot of money, i had the turbo,with red & an IR in a Spare neck & regret selling it on,i should of held onto it untill these T20's where tested.

The nightmaster is a lot of money, but I have more than got my money's worth over the last 18 months or so.

[Davyo]

The nightmaster is a lot of money, but I have more than got my money's worth over the last 18 months or so.

Yep totally agree,the IR was brilliant,a bit OTT at times,but nowt can touch it.The red was just awsome,better than the lightforce 170.The wifes going to buy me another one for me birthday on the 23rd.The only thing I didnt like was the twisty neck thing for the 3 modes on IR, but at least it worked,I have 3 T20's that have 3 modes and they packed up within a couple of months.

I will still keep 2 of them as, one is shortened in my spotter & the other is fitted to my 4x4 for NV driving(both single mode & powered with 12v regulators so no stupid batteries)

[Salop Matt]

I have some Ultra-fire batterys which touch wood have always been great for me, they may not be genuine or protected but I use a WF-139 charger and only charge while I am about and only use them in my £30 internet purchase torch.

I have now bought a Night Master Venom so being alot more moneys worth of kit I have bought myself a NiteCore battery that should arrive in the next day or two, if that runs out when am out I can use a pair of CR123A batterys as I have plenty of these available to me, but long term I will get more nightcore batterys or some torchy batterys !

 

ATB

 

Matt

 

 

PS. Anyone els using the WF-139 charger ?

[Davyo]

I have some Ultra-fire batterys which touch wood have always been great for me, they may not be genuine or protected but I use a WF-139 charger and only charge while I am about and only use them in my £30 internet purchase torch.

I have now bought a Night Master Venom so being alot more moneys worth of kit I have bought myself a NiteCore battery that should arrive in the next day or two, if that runs out when am out I can use a pair of CR123A batterys as I have plenty of these available to me, but long term I will get more nightcore batterys or some torchy batterys !

 

Forgot about the Venom,so the dialable end cap does away with the 3 mode twist neck thing the NM800 has?Its slightley cheaper as well I believed, need to have a look at this one.

 

ATB

 

Matt

 

 

PS. Anyone els using the WF-139 charger ?

[Salop Matt]

Davyo, did you mean to post ? As I cant see you have any text other than quoting me !

 

ATB

 

Matt

[Davyo]

Davyo, did you mean to post ? As I cant see you have any text other than quoting me !

 

ATB

 

Matt

Sorry mate,wasnt watching what I was doing.I forgot all about the Venom, it cheaper as well and it has that new adjuster on the end cap which is better than the twisty neck thing on the NM.Will definatly look into the Venom

[colin lad]

will the t20 run of 2x cr123 batteries my 501b's seem ok as i have half a dozen rechargeable cr123's

could take them out as a back up

 

colin

[mick miller]

Point taken about unprotected cells - though I have to wonder why they waited till they were in a car before shorting out for no reason and would imagine a coin or something did the dirty deed.

 

The issues are supposed to be when re-charging them if deep discharged. Doing them separately removes the risk (AS FAR AS I HAVE READ)

 

I don't profess to be an expert. I have had no issues when using them to test up to 20 torches at a time for over 90 minutes - and run them till my NV rigs stop working.

 

Because of the rumours I mostly charge them in the conservatory rather than indoors but I genuinely believe that separate charging removes the risk.

 

I use chargers with separate charging circuits for each cell - this new one seems even better than the ones I use:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-XTAR-MC2-Battery-Charger-18650-18500-18350-14500-LiMn-IMR-Li-ion-USB-UK-/360993783779?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Battery_Chargers&hash=item540ce7ffe3

 

Have a read here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_ion_safety_concerns

 

and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

 

Particularly this bit "Lithium ion batteries are more expensive than NiCd batteries but operate over a wider temperature range with higher energy densities. They require a protective circuit to limit peak voltage.

For notebooks or laptops, lithium-ion cells are supplied as part of a battery pack with temperature sensors, voltage converter/regulator circuit, voltage tap, battery charge state monitor and the main connector. These components monitor the state of charge and current in and out of each cell, capacities of each individual cell (drastic change can lead to reverse polarities which is dangerous),^[39] temperature of each cell and minimize the risk of short circuits.^[40]"

 

and also here:

 

Noting this bit (this is the bit you remove when you use those single cells from a laptop battery): http://www.electronics-lab.com/articles/Li_Ion_reconstruct/

Inside a Li-Ion pack there is always a safety circuit that consists of four main sections:

1. The controller IC that monitors each cell (or parallel cells) voltage and prevents the cells to overcharge or overdischarge controlling accordingly the cutoff switches. Also the voltage across the switches is monitors in order to prevent over current.

2. The control switches that usually comprises FET structures that cutoff the charge or discharge depending on the control signals of the controller IC.

3. The temperature fuse that cutoff the current if the control switches experience abnormal heating. This fuse is not recoverable.

4. The thermistor (usually PTC) that measure the battery temperature inside the pack. It's terminals are connected to the charger so it can sense the temperature of the pack and control the charge current until the battery it's full charged.

 

They're pretty safe these days but one of the prerequisites is to have the necessary protection circuits in place (either in a battery of several individual cells as in a laptop battery or as single cell with the protection circuit contained in the outer packaging; in other words, a single 18650).

 

Given that the brains behind these things have unanimously agreed that to make them 'safe' for the end user you absolutely NEED a protection circuit in place and when a perfectly safe one, from a reputable manufacturer will cost you around a tenner, why risk it?

[Dave-G]

will the t20 run of 2x cr123 batteries my 501b's seem ok as i have half a dozen rechargeable cr123's

could take them out as a back up

 

colin

No Colin not the IR ones - definitely not mate. The drivers for the IR LED are only rated to 4.3 ish volts but you would be putting over 8 volts into them. I think I advised you about that when you bought the T20?

 

 

I think your 501b's are red ones that were bought off ebay? If that is the case they might survive the voltage.

[Dave-G]

Thanks for those links Mick.

 

As near as I can see they are referring to multiple cell packs that are used and charged as a multi pack rather than individual cylindrical vented cells that are removed from a torch and charged with single circuit chargers supplying correct voltages and current ratings for one cell - so there is no way the voltage or current supplied can become excessive.

 

The wiki linked info included this in the safety section:

 

Other safety features are required in each cell:^[44]

• Shut-down separator (for overheating)
• Tear-away tab (for internal pressure)
• Vent (pressure relief)
• Thermal interrupt (overcurrent/overcharging)

 

 

 

I admire your caution but I and I believe others use them in torches and other devices without those issues.

[Luckyshot]

What beats me is,why dont the sellers of these T20's sell them with a quality batteries?You wouldnt expect to get a NM800 with **** batteries.

You cant have it all ways, the T20 is £30 a decent make battery will cost you around a third of that.

[Davyo]

You cant have it all ways, the T20 is £30 a decent make battery will cost you around a third of that.

Its not just the batteries though is it, its the fact that each suppliers are putting in different drivers/leds (poss the cheapest they can get)so the torch is a lottery.Out of the 5 T20's I have, the 3 that are 3 mode, 2 of them only have 2 modes now the 3rd has one (low mode).Neither of them even when new would remember their last mode.The other 2 are single modes of which one the driver failed leaving the pill very dull.All have play on the head when not fully dialed in oe out(have to put tape on the head to fix this issue)These T20s are all from different suppliers(all UK) and only 1 bothered to reply and repair.

If your going to get or thinking of getting a T20 only buy one,and use it for six mths before buying anymore, unlike me where I bought 3 straight away and then bought 2 a few weeks later and then the issues started.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Davyo

[Salop Matt]

Folks,

What chargers are we all using for our 18650`s ?

 

ATB

 

Matt

[Davyo]

i just ordered a nitcore,the ones that came with the T20's have been binned. Dodgey internals!

[Dave-G]

I use a nitecore intellicharger i2 and an XTAR wp2 11.

 

I also agree with Davyo about the trashy chargers sold with the cheaper cells.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Dave-G

[colin lad]

No Colin not the IR ones - definitely not mate. The drivers for the IR LED are only rated to 4.3 ish volts but you would be putting over 8 volts into them. I think I advised you about that when you bought the T20?

 

 

I think your 501b's are red ones that were bought off ebay? If that is the case they might survive the voltage.

yes mate you did say about the ir i was talking about t20 red led sorry didn't make myself clear

 

colin

[Dave-G]

yes mate you did say about the ir i was talking about t20 red led sorry didn't make myself clear

 

colin

Ah - good man.

[activeviii]

I order from fasttech.com nitecore charger and Panasonic batteries.

I stopped making the t20 for others when Mor people started to make them cheaper but with lower quality parts. Bad focal lengths

Only today one gent mailed me with an issue with another makers t20

 

Old him I would be happy to help. His reply on the other makers torch was 'it looks like you get what you pay for'

 

 

 

Its very very easy to make a t20 and bang it out the door. Any monkey can do it. But to make a good one you need to machine a new pill with correct back focal lenght or bodge the one that's in it.

[Luckyshot]

I order from fasttech.com nitecore charger and Panasonic batteries.

I stopped making the t20 for others when Mor people started to make them cheaper but with lower quality parts. Bad focal lengths

Only today one gent mailed me with an issue with another makers t20

Old him I would be happy to help. His reply on the other makers torch was 'it looks like you get what you pay for'

Its very very easy to make a t20 and bang it out the door. Any monkey can do it. But to make a good one you need to machine a new pill with correct back focal lenght or bodge the one that's in it.

You hit the nail on the head, "you get what you pay for" can't compare it to a torch that costs 5x as much.

[Davyo]

Well lol,the torchy batteries came,1 charged in 2 hrs, the other however dead as a donut.