panoma1 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I believe it is now time for all shooting interests (BASC included) to stand together and form an action group to oppose the discredited LAG, the first task would be to write to the government minister responsible and insist the LAG had lost integrity and consequently must be disbanded, their questionable findings must be discounted as potentially misleading, dishonest and biased, any conclusions it arrives at or opinions expressed (as per the FOI disclosures) appear to be based on emotion, bias and/or misinterpretation rather than scientific fact, and the chair (should it be he that wrote the FOI emails) has by his actions demonstrated he is not competent to control the group (leaks and the attempts to misinform by the early release of biased reports) and/or fails on the requirement for a chair to be impartial and unbiased. This 'leaking' of information on the "early misrepresentations of what is likely to emerge" which the government were concerned about in 2012 (as per the extract from Hansard) has totally discredited the LAG. In doing this BASC could regain some of the trust of members lost in this debacle by demonstrating its willingness to fight for and support shooting against unfair attacks by both our enemies and the authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I believe it is now time for all shooting interests (BASC included) to stand together and form an action group to oppose the discredited LAG, the first task would be to write to the government minister responsible and insist the LAG had lost integrity and consequently must be disbanded, their questionable findings must be discounted as potentially misleading, dishonest and biased, any conclusions it arrives at or opinions expressed (as per the FOI disclosures) appear to be based on emotion, bias and/or misinterpretation rather than scientific fact, and the chair (should it be he that wrote the FOI emails) has by his actions demonstrated he is not competent to control the group (leaks and the attempts to misinform by the early release of biased reports) and/or fails on the requirement for a chair to be impartial and unbiased. This 'leaking' of information on the "early misrepresentations of what is likely to emerge" which the government were concerned about in 2012 (as per the extract from Hansard) has totally discredited the LAG. In doing this BASC could regain some of the trust of members lost in this debacle by demonstrating its willingness to fight for and support shooting against unfair attacks by both our enemies and the authorities. I feel something similar would be very appropriate, we are all shooters after all. Someone has to do their research very thoroughly to give such a letter to Ministers the conviction and credibility which will allow them to disband the LAG and reconstitute it with a new Chairman. That absolutely leaves John Swift discredited but the credibility of BASC and hopefully, shooting, fully restored. It would have to be a brilliant letter or it will look like 'wriggling', as the RSPB puts it. I suggest it should also be personal and confidential. Since this is your suggestion Panoma and you have been roundly criticised earlier in this thread - I have to agree and will stop posting (again) and watch instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear68 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) David; will BASC be lodging an official complaint about John Swift's apparent non-impartiallity? Edited February 13, 2015 by Bear68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Has BASC actually been in touch with John Swift to ask what the heck is going on and indeed what exactly he thinks he is doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Fair enough. but the simple fact is that BASC have been defending all of you and your rights for many many years, years before others even 'came to the party' I am pleased other organisations are now well on side, But for anyone to come on here and claim BASC is not up to the mark, or that BASC are not doing its best or have done anything wrong is totally incorrect. Think about it for a moment, why on earth would BASC not do all it can to deliver for its members and the shooting community as a whole. look w hat we have posted on our web site, and rest assured we are very much on the case Lets stop this pointless infighting, lets wait to see what the LAG report says and what Defra's reaction is, just like we have said on the BASC web site, than lets stand together to all fight our corner David For some to work for BASC must qualify as a dream job and for others simply employment. Some 30 years ago I was up and down to t' Mill like the proverbial yo-yo. Above all, the one thing that stood out was, that no matter into which category the staff fell, the dedication to their work and how hard they applied themselves to it. I would imagine that nothing has changed in the intervening years. Consequently, one can only guess at the sadness and demoralisation that this apparent act of betrayel has caused them. Edit: Muddled words corrected. Edited February 13, 2015 by wymberley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am not ignoring anything Kes. I can't think for one moment of any viable reason for you to even suggest that I am. I and all those at BASC are fully aware of what's happened and we are committed to making sure BASC remains at the forefront of helping members and keeping their shooting safe. And not just on the lead issue I do not know what if any contact there has been with John this week, never the less the simple fact is that it is not up to the Chairman of LAG to dictate what comes out in the report, it is only the entire group that has this remit and power. I am absolutely sure that Barney from the CA who is there representing BASC, CA et all will be making this point loud and clear to the group! We will continue to lobby, as we have done for years, for no further restrictions on lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am not ignoring anything Kes. I can't think for one moment of any viable reason for you to even suggest that I am. I and all those at BASC are fully aware of what's happened and we are committed to making sure BASC remains at the forefront of helping members and keeping their shooting safe. And not just on the lead issue I do not know what if any contact there has been with John this week, never the less the simple fact is that it is not up to the Chairman of LAG to dictate what comes out in the report, it is only the entire group that has this remit and power. I am absolutely sure that Barney from the CA who is there representing BASC, CA et all will be making this point loud and clear to the group! We will continue to lobby, as we have done for years, for no further restrictions on lead i thought i was i was paying BASC( not CA) to represent me ,i must be with the wrong organisation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear68 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) David; will BASC be lodging an official complaint about John Swift's apparent non-impartiallity? David, please can you answer the above question? If BASC are not able to complain, will you be askung the CA to do so? Edited February 13, 2015 by Bear68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I have said repeatedly why Barney is on the group representing ALL the shooting organisations - not just the CA! I have also explained what BASC has done and will continue to do, and its on our web site As I said, Bear I do not know what contact has or will be made with John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear68 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 David, shouldn't BASC be asking CA whether contact has been made with John Swift about the email? You have explained that CA represent all shooting organisations on the LAG, so surely you are entitlted to ask CA this question, and advise your members accordingly. Do you agree that the comments made in the email appear inconsistent with the impartiality required of a chairman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Obviously my avatar was offensive to some (or copyright, or something) and was going to change it at lunchtime anyhow, but it had been deleted in the interim, so have changed it to a nice pic of my liddle doggy. As I've mentioned on here a few times, I lost faith in J. Swift some years ago after attending a BASC evening in Carlisle, and subsequently and bit by bit and much to my frustrated disappointment, lost faith in BASC over the following years. I hope to one day have my faith in them restored to the extent I would consider rejoining, but it will take something drastic on their part for me to now become impressed, and right at this minute I feel we (and I mean ALL shooters and their respective organisations) must be the laughing stock of all those who oppose what we do and our way of life. They must be revelling in this. As someone else has stated, our shooting organisations seem to be managing shootings decline, rather than managing its growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I agree the Chair is supposed to be impartial I cannot agree that shooting is in decline, given how many people are joining BASC, how many enquiries we get from people looking for shooting, how many people are here at the British Shooting Show...I could go on, but I hope I have made my point. however, I do agree that all this bickering and unfounded accusations being thrown at BASC by some will be welcomed by those who oppose us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear68 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 David, I am pleased that you agree that JS's comments appear inconsistent with his role. Will you liaise with CA on how these concerns can be formally raised or is it up to the CA alone to do so (ie. BASC consider that a statement saying JS does not represent BASC is sufficient). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I have no doubt that BASC and CA are talking, that's what people have been asking for for ages, more coperstive working among us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I agree the Chair is supposed to be impartial I cannot agree that shooting is in decline, given how many people are joining BASC, how many enquiries we get from people looking for shooting, how many people are here at the British Shooting Show...I could go on, but I hope I have made my point. however, I do agree that all this bickering and unfounded accusations being thrown at BASC by some will be welcomed by those who oppose us The fact is that by and large the BASC appear to have sat on their hands doing next to nothing about this issue. A quickly cobbled together webpage does little to reinstate confidence and neither does just stating we don't know when questioned about JS. You should damned well be chasing this up and earning those expensive subscriptions I've been paying for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am not ignoring anything Kes. I can't think for one moment of any viable reason for you to even suggest that I am. I and all those at BASC are fully aware of what's happened and we are committed to making sure BASC remains at the forefront of helping members and keeping their shooting safe. And not just on the lead issue I do not know what if any contact there has been with John this week, never the less the simple fact is that it is not up to the Chairman of LAG to dictate what comes out in the report, it is only the entire group that has this remit and power. I am absolutely sure that Barney from the CA who is there representing BASC, CA et all will be making this point loud and clear to the group! We will continue to lobby, as we have done for years, for no further restrictions on lead "David, you simply cannot (with credibility) ignore what this has done to shooting, or the links to BASC. You may wish to, I would have been very happy for BASC to make this test a triumph and gather membership accordingly - I would even have reconsidered my position as a non-member." Unusual comment considering the sentence which was below it. My comment was not personal but BASC related - I think it would be helpful in this context to KNOW what BASC et al are doing about Mr Swifts intemperate and unwise e-mails, dont you ? Your following sentence neatly side-steps a direct response. I dont think, from the comments above, I am alone in this or especially worthy of singular criticism. I do however understand why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear68 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) David, please confirm whether BASC will ask CA to formally object to JS's email on behalf of your members, of which I am one. All I ask for is a straight 'yes' or 'no'. Edited February 13, 2015 by Bear68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 With all respect Sits, BASC have been on the lead shot case for decades as I have said severely times above, far from sitting on our hands. I am willing to wager that if BASC had not delivered especially over the last 25 years or so , lead shot use would be far more restricted than it is now. There is more to do and the outline plan is on the BASC web site, not quickly cobbled together, just a reiteration of the plan that's already in place, you guys asked the questions, I provided the answers on a single page - why criticise me for doing exactly what I was asked? Lets more on and work together for the good of shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 With all respect Sits, BASC have been on the lead shot case for decades as I have said severely times above, far from sitting on our hands. I am willing to wager that if BASC had not delivered especially over the last 25 years or so , lead shot use would be far more restricted than it is now. There is more to do and the outline plan is on the BASC web site, not quickly cobbled together, just a reiteration of the plan that's already in place, you guys asked the questions, I provided the answers on a single page - why criticise me for doing exactly what I was asked? Lets more on and work together for the good of shooting And John Swift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Does this really cover all concerns ? "Lets more on and work together for the good of shooting" - I presume you mean 'move'. David, you must see that response, isnt really a response, its just a plea for damage limitation in its most obvious form. Just simply, as a shooter, I would really appreciate some meaningful answer and action on this issue of what J S is playing at and where this leaves the credibility of the LAG v shooting representation and what action shooting orgs are going to take to redress this. Since you are here, I am asking but also of the NGO. No superlatives at all in that, even though they are clearly deserved. If you cant de-link what I am saying from the convenient 'BASC bashing suggestion' then I give up - almost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yes move, thank you My friends in shooting - BASC has a plan, part of which I have put on the website. There is little more I can say David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear68 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am disappointed that you feel unable to answer my question. John Swift appears to have seriously breached his remit as Chair of the LAG and BASC seems to be refusing to even acknowledge this fact, let alone deal with it in anyway whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am disappointed that you feel unable to answer my question. John Swift appears to have seriously breached his remit as Chair of the LAG and BASC seems to be refusing to even acknowledge this fact, let alone deal with it in anyway whatsoever. I am hoping that "there is little more I can say" is code for I cant say anymore (atm), worth perhaps giving David the benefit for now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 The emails are headed: Response to FOI on emails between Defra and the Lead Ammunition Group So the emails where between Defra and the LAG, John Swift as chairman and the secretariat who could have replied to the emails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear68 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Kes, happy to do so and hope that some positive action will take place. I feel that John Swift has let down BASC, both its members and his former colleagues, together with the wider shooting community. Edited February 13, 2015 by Bear68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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