Dirty Harry Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Mike, I've stopped loads of people over the years that would be very similar in circumstances to your lad. I will not let any of them leave unless I am 100% sure they are insured. This will involve various checks over the radio and phone and can be more problematic if cars have recently changed hands or new policy's have been taken out. Letting someone drive off along a busy motorway if I think they have no insurance is not an option. It's very easy for you son to think it's the officer being difficult but he's doing it for a reason. Trust me he wouldn't be doing it if the computer said it was all in order. If the policy was taken out on 1st the insurance company would have to notify the Motor Insurers Bureau and this would then have to filter through to the police national computer and that's probably not happened yet. It takes time. It never helps when you have people telling you they have xyz experience and they are studying law or whatever. They will just rub the officer up the wrong way and rightly or wrongly that may cause the officer to go for a prosecution rather than words of advice. I could tell you stories of a solicitor doing coke whilst driving on the motorway towards Glastonbury or a consultant who got pulled over and had no documents so forged them. He got struck off and had a trip to court but I will save them for another day!!! If someone has committed a moving traffic offence (due care) then the officer has a power to request a breath test. If it's refused then he could have been arrested. Common practice to be honest and nothing to worry about. Was your son issued with a ticket or reported for the offence to appear at court? If it's a ticket the are instructions on the back as to what to do if he wants to contest it. I would suggest if your son wants to contest it then do so and ask to see the evidence the police have on him. He is entitled to see this before a court appearance. That may help decide if he then wants to go through with a court appearance. Some police bikes have on board video so there may be evidence. The middle lane offence came into play last year and I've not dealt with anyone for it. Blue lights and a wave of the finger usually suffice. Maybe the police bike close behind your son was the clue to move over and he didn't take it! A mate of mine gave someone a headlamp flash once to get them to move over into lane 1. They responded with a 2 fingered salute. They were stopped and turned out to be drunk! Anyway all the best to your son and if you have any questions PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Does the paperwork specify the particular stretch / distance the offence is alleged to have taken place? It would have to state chapter and verse otherwise it can be unravelled in court. Even if it stated all the right things how could a motorcycle cop have recorded the facts at the time sitting on a motorcycle at 70 mph? Down in the West Country about 20 odd years ago the motorway police were terrible for adding embelishments to summonses. Get pulled over for doing 80 and you would find a summons coming back for 110, that sort of thing. Groups of perfectly respectable bikers were harrassed terribly, it has left me very distrusting of traffic cops Edited January 6, 2015 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I would suggest you set down the details you have above in an e-mail to the Chief Constable for your area, copy to the Commissioner. The alternative and probably better course is to ring and ask to speak to a senior officer in the Traffic division. I would add to the statement of facts either verbally or in writing, a series of sentences outlining your concerns, such as;, "it is therefore unclear why and for what possible offence my son was stopped, in a difficult driving environment and apparently charged with an offence which seems, in the traffic circumstances, to be the typical driving behaviour which a more mature driver would also have been doing. You will appreciate that I am extremely concerned since, in my experience, any such concern by an officer would result in an explantion at the roadside and not an assumption of ownership, insurance etc which was based more perhaps on my sons appearance than anything else. I would ask for you to review both the circumstances of this challenge and the allocation of any penalty as a result of what was 'normal driving behaviour' in the traffic flow conditions at the time. Normally I would not question an officers judgement but this event warrants detailed review and I would appreciate your comments once that has been carried out ad before I am therefore further able to advise my son on the course of action he should take to defend himself. Takes a bit of anger to challenge the establishment but the facts being as you suggest the constable tried to justify his own prejudice. Let us know the outcome Kes if this were a competition you would win the prize for talking the most ********. I would suggest your method would ensure they every i was dotted and every t crossed and a conviction more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 It would have to state chapter and verse otherwise it can be unravelled in court. Even if it stated all the right things how could a motorcycle cop have recorded the facts at the time sitting on a motorcycle at 70 mph? Down in the West Country about 20 odd years ago the motorway police were terrible for adding embelishments to summonses. Get pulled over for doing 80 and you would find a summons coming back for 110, that sort of thing. Groups of respectable bikers were harrassed terribly, it has left me very distrusting of traffic cops It's not hard to remember that you followed someone from junction 10-11 eastbound or between this bridge or that and what the traffic and road conditions were like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) It would have to state chapter and verse otherwise it can be unravelled in court. Even if it stated all the right things how could a motorcycle cop have recorded the facts at the time sitting on a motorcycle at 70 mph? Down in the West Country about 20 odd years ago the motorway police were terrible for adding embelishments to summonses. Get pulled over for doing 80 and you would find a summons coming back for 110, that sort of thing. Groups of perfectly respectable bikers were harrassed terribly, it has left me very distrusting of traffic cops What I was getting at is you will get the prosecution's evidence if you ask to take the matter to Court, so you will eventually get the copper's statement. However what details of the offence have been presented now? I suspect that if you ask to take the matter further and press for a court hearing then the offer of a rehabilitation course may evaporate and you are probably then gambling - double or quits but with points. So, if the paperwork available now says 'dawdling between junctions 8-9 west bound m25 at 7.45 am then you could sniff out traffic cam footage now before making the decision to proceed. I'm intrigued about the traffic cam footage though and access to it - I don't know how easy / hard / possible that would be. I'm guessing the m25 is 24/7 covered and recorded Edit Have looky here http://www.highways.gov.uk/traffic-information/traffic-information-services/traffic-cameras/the-highways-agency-and-traffic-cameras/ The footage will be out there but I doubt that the highways agency welcome every Tom **** and Harry writing in 'demanding' to see archived imagery. Saying that I've just remembered my girly at work got some video off a motorway camera relating to an insurance claim / accident situation. I think that the insurers in that case had access to the footage. I digress. Having typed this lot out my advice is 'it's not worth the aggro'. Tell your son to do the course and welcome him to the real world - not all coppers are 'straightforward'. I'm beginning to think in car CCTV (you can get them off ebay for a oner) is the way forward - it's a 360 degree camera that clips to the rear view mirror and records everything including speed and GPS location. Edited January 7, 2015 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daystate 177 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I'd just take the course of I was your lad, the courses up here normally last half a day and are 95 quid, if you go to court and try to win which you might well do, but if you don't un due care is I think 6 points !!! And then there's the fact your lads car will be marked, I had a sports car when I was 21 left money in a will from my grandad so went and bought a cosworth I ended up selling it as I managed to get 7 producers in 1 week once the car is marked your a sitting duck and will be pulled for everything and anything, so just take it on the chin and forget about it once the course is done that's it job done no fines or penalty points etc, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 If motorway was very busy and inside lane moving slow(er) than your sons rate of progress then by any definition he was overtaking. In very heavy traffic, and the M25 was one of my regular routes, I have spent many miles in the outside lane effectively overtaking as the option to pull in to the middle or inside lane was just not there because of the sheer weight of traffic. If the m/way was very busy and you can prove this, I would contest the charges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Kes if this were a competition you would win the prize for talking the most ********. I would suggest your method would ensure they every i was dotted and every t crossed and a conviction more likely. Whilst I appreciate you are a police officer, I have done this on 2 occasions successfully and I used to work with the police. Sadly police who believe themselves to be above the public are many and this attitude has to be challenged. I once attended an internal police seminar on casualty reduction and a group of 4 police motorcycle cops challenged the Chief Constable on the justification for wasting their time - many didnt see the need to do what was being asked, by their boss. Being in a position of authority does not confer absolute authority but does breed a degree of arrogance. I've mentioned a police car driving dangerously whilst the driver was under instruction at 120MPH on a 70 limited motorway in heavy traffic conditions before. Many in the police believe themselves the arbiters of the law, not the judges, so challenge is sometimes the only means to curb excess. So please dont patronise me with your attitude - I could have said ********. And there was me thinking up to this point I believed you a sensible poster. You seem convinced of your own infallibility - just the attitude we dont need - as the public you serve. Edited January 7, 2015 by Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Kes all I'm hearing is blah blah blah. Come back when you have sorted out that chip on your shoulder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Mike, I've stopped loads of people over the years that would be very similar in circumstances to your lad. I will not let any of them leave unless I am 100% sure they are insured. This will involve various checks over the radio and phone and can be more problematic if cars have recently changed hands or new policy's have been taken out. Letting someone drive off along a busy motorway if I think they have no insurance is not an option. It's very easy for you son to think it's the officer being difficult but he's doing it for a reason. Trust me he wouldn't be doing it if the computer said it was all in order. If the policy was taken out on 1st the insurance company would have to notify the Motor Insurers Bureau and this would then have to filter through to the police national computer and that's probably not happened yet. It takes time. It never helps when you have people telling you they have xyz experience and they are studying law or whatever. They will just rub the officer up the wrong way and rightly or wrongly that may cause the officer to go for a prosecution rather than words of advice. I could tell you stories of a solicitor doing coke whilst driving on the motorway towards Glastonbury or a consultant who got pulled over and had no documents so forged them. He got struck off and had a trip to court but I will save them for another day!!! If someone has committed a moving traffic offence (due care) then the officer has a power to request a breath test. If it's refused then he could have been arrested. Common practice to be honest and nothing to worry about. Was your son issued with a ticket or reported for the offence to appear at court? If it's a ticket the are instructions on the back as to what to do if he wants to contest it. I would suggest if your son wants to contest it then do so and ask to see the evidence the police have on him. He is entitled to see this before a court appearance. That may help decide if he then wants to go through with a court appearance. Some police bikes have on board video so there may be evidence. The middle lane offence came into play last year and I've not dealt with anyone for it. Blue lights and a wave of the finger usually suffice. Maybe the police bike close behind your son was the clue to move over and he didn't take it! A mate of mine gave someone a headlamp flash once to get them to move over into lane 1. They responded with a 2 fingered salute. They were stopped and turned out to be drunk! Anyway all the best to your son and if you have any questions PM me. Cheers for that... He was issued with a yellow ticket and it says basically they may either refer to the courts or suggest a driver improvement course in lieu of a penalty. I hope its the latter. My Lad admits he was in the middle lane but they both maintain that the traffic in the inner lane was moving slower and that in the outer lane faster...There were other cars in the middle lane in front of them travelling at a constant speed for several miles. He does admit he could and perhaps should have pulled into the inner lane but he says he would have been weaving in and out constantly if he had. I don't doubt the Officer was only doing his job but it sounds he was being a bit over zealous to be honest, and could have stopped any one of about 50 cars at the time. Any way what's happened has happened...if they do consider the driver improvement course is the best way to proceed perhaps it might do him a bit of good. Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 My wife did a course a few months ago Mike and she learned a lot from it. It will only make him a better driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Kes all I'm hearing is blah blah blah. Come back when you have sorted out that chip on your shoulder. This is a thread about something other than our difference of opinion - I would say your response is untypical and perhaps rather inappropriate for a serving officer but it takes all sorts, even in the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 This is a thread about something other than our difference of opinion - I would say your response is untypical and perhaps rather inappropriate for a serving officer but it takes all sorts, even in the police. Even the police have.......feelings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) id have a go at court if he's innocent and ask to see any video from the police, if he's telling the truth he will get off and if the police have no video they may drop it. Edited January 7, 2015 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 id have a go at court if he's innocent and ask to see any video from the police, if he's telling the truth he will get off and if the police have no video they may drop it. Resistance is futile ---------apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 If I was driving the car in question, had a first hand knowledge of exactly what went on and I knew I was right I'd go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 If I was driving the car in question, had a first hand knowledge of exactly what went on and I knew I was right I'd go for it. I agree and if we dont, perhaps we deserve what we get. It is however, up to the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Even the police have.......feelings Indeed, I found Dirty Harry to be nothing other than supportive, decent, helpful, sensible and an all-round-good-guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thanks Malkiserow, I try to be helpful where possible but one thing I won't do, unlike many on here, is comment on things I don't know about or give bad advice to people. Some people don't like hearing the truth and don't like being told they are wrong. Unfortunately for them I don't care! Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 We spend gazillions widening roads, only for drivers to ignore the inside lane and stick to lanes 3 & 4. It's rare to see a motorway policeman, so the driver was either particularly unlucky, or driving especially badly, in order to be pulled over. Then, joy of joys, he finds a couple of smart mouth students straight out of law school to shout the odds. They should be grateful the rozzer didn't Tazer them just to shut them up! Take the driving lesson and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 We spend gazillions widening roads, only for drivers to ignore the inside lane and stick to lanes 3 & 4. It's rare to see a motorway policeman, so the driver was either particularly unlucky, or driving especially badly, in order to be pulled over. Then, joy of joys, he finds a couple of smart mouth students straight out of law school to shout the odds. They should be grateful the rozzer didn't Tazer them just to shut them up! Take the driving lesson and move on. Now this is helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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