neutron619 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I'm not bashing anyone, giving an opinion or saying anything about anyone. However, I found this on one of the other forums recently and I'm (again) concerned about the level of advocacy displayed one of the parties to the discussions. Most relevant part starts on page 11: http://forums.shootinguk.co.uk/showthread.php?12316-Is-this-normal Edited: removed unnecessarily provocative comment. Edited February 17, 2015 by neutron619 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Seems like another classic "we don't have all the facts" situation to me, from what I can see he's applied for fac without actually being a member of a club or having land and its a speculative application so I can see why it's so murky? Dangers of Internet forums are being drip fed the facts as the poster sees fit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Dangers of Internet forums are being drip fed the facts as the poster sees fit I quite agree and I'm sure we don't have all the facts. I take your point about the FAC and I agree, the justification is a little thin. However, unless I've seriously misunderstood what's going on there, my concern was around the idea that he seems to be being refused a section 2 certificate as well on the basis of some spurious "you don't have experience" reason from the police and that no-one seems to be prepared to stand up and say "that's not right". Edited February 17, 2015 by neutron619 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 There is way more going on here that meets the eye, but of course I cannot say on here much more or give the full background. Suffice to say BASC are still actively trying to help this member and we have been speaking to his firearms licencing team on this issue for a couple of weeks. The ball is very much in the applicants court now. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 There is way more going on here that meets the eye, but of course I cannot say on here much more or give the full background. Suffice to say BASC are still actively trying to help this member and we have been speaking to his firearms licencing team on this issue for a couple of weeks. The ball is very much in the applicants court now. David This is very good to hear. This "spiker" chap seems to have been keeping a diary by way of that thread over on ShootingUK, which I've seen from time to time when I pop over there. However it's hard to escape the conclusion that - if he's not a liar - the police are trying to apply FAC-style conditions to a SGC. For shooting's benefit, it's vitally important that that doesn't become another of ways in which they "bend" the guidelines to advance a "no guns for Joe Public" agenda. I thought it was worth mentioning, is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Trust me the police in this case are not trying to apply FAC style conditions, nor are any other authority, but if the full facts of the case were known than I am sure you would all see why it has come to this point. Never the less, the member is aware of the genuine concerns the police licencing team have, as we have told him after agreeing exactly what theses concerns are with the manager of the department. The member now knows what he needs to do to overcome these concerns and if he can, he will be granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I'm not bashing anyone, giving an opinion or saying anything about anyone. However, I found this on one of the other forums recently and I'm (again) concerned about the level of advocacy displayed one of the parties to the discussions. Most relevant part starts on page 11: http://forums.shootinguk.co.uk/showthread.php?12316-Is-this-normal I'm just nipping over to the other thread to read the latest about the Lead shot issues now. What shooting organisation are you a member of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 What shooting organisation are you a member of? BASC, CA and the BDS - not that that's relevant unless you're trying to provoke yet another argument about "BASC bashing"? I'm happy to take David's word for it that the situation as reported publically does not reflect the reality and reassured by his comment that the police are not acting beyond their remit. Where they act within the law, I'm happy; where they don't, I believe it's worth questioning, else we're accepting it by staying quiet about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 PS - I accept that the title of this thread was unnecessarily provocative. I obviously hoped to draw interest towards it, hence choosing that title. If the mods would like to change the name or delete it, I'm happy with that - my concerns have been addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Absolutely, if the police ARE acting within the law and within their remit that's one thing. If they are acting outside of the law of laying on silly stuff which is outside of their remit there is a case to fight, be it through discussion and negotiation or, if needs be, though the courts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 BASC, CA and the BDS - not that that's relevant unless you're trying to provoke yet another argument about "BASC bashing"? I'm happy to take David's word for it that the situation as reported publically does not reflect the reality and reassured by his comment that the police are not acting beyond their remit. Where they act within the law, I'm happy; where they don't, I believe it's worth questioning, else we're accepting it by staying quiet about it. No. Just wondering why you're posting another forum's thread on here when you seemed to be somewhat defensive in your first post. I have personally contacted 4 people who have moaned like hell on public forums re BASC in the past - as it was completely opposite to what I had experienced when I had a rather nasty situation re licensing and had been helped enormously by BASC. None of it being incidentally, my fault, IMHO. And I believe that BASC went well beyond what could reasonably have been expected of them to get things resolved in my situation. In each of the 4 situations that I contacted, there were significant factors that the OPs didn't post on the thread. The last one being that the guy had threaded to top himself some years previous and it was his wife who told this to the police. Hardly a surprise that he got his guns lifted and he didn't mention that when he moaned about the lack of help from BASC - who incidentally and IMHO, gave him the best advice possible, in the absence of a magic wand. Still wondering why you're posting other threads on here as your first post seems to be two faced to me. I'm not bashing anyone, giving an opinion or saying anything about anyone. ............ and I'm (again) concerned about the level of advocacy displayed one of the parties to the discussions. PS - I accept that the title of this thread was unnecessarily provocative. I obviously hoped to draw interest towards it, hence choosing that title. If the mods would like to change the name or delete it, I'm happy with that - my concerns have been addressed. OK - and just give me the nod and i'll delete my comments above as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Very interesting, thank you for bringing it to our attention Neutron619. Thank you David BASC for your prompt answer. I would expect to see more and more of this sort of thing going on and we need to keep a collective eye on the developments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Still wondering why you're posting other threads on here as your first post seems to be two faced to me. Two-faced, provocative - yep, I suppose you could say that, but it's probably a bit strong. Look at it from my point of view: there are 200-odd folk on here who think the sun shines out of BASC's collective bottom and another 200-odd who seem to hate them with a passion. If I want answers about the discussions going on in the link I posted, do you think it would have been a good idea for me to say "BASC are **** - look here:" and post a URL? Any useful responses would have got lost in the ****storm. Speaking personally, I've found BASC's service a mixed bag. In terms of supplying information (e.g. "what are the CIP regs for this obscure cartridge / calibre?") they've been very helpful - faultless even. At the same time, I've found their willingness to campaign politically in an uncompromising manner, or stand up for the law to the letter somewhat underwhelming. The point is, that's not the point. It doesn't matter what I personally think about them. When I posted the thread, it looked a lot like a wannabe shooter was being denied an SGC because he lacked experience. I saw that thread and my heart sank - "BASC rolling over again", I thought. BASC (David) don't (doesn't) post on ShootingUK so there was no chance of seeing any feedback there. I also felt that if the police are starting to introduce "conditions" on SGCs then that's something people need to know about. ShootingUK is not, by any standard, the busiest or best populated forum on the internet, so posting the link was a means of getting that person's troubles seen more widely and giving people the heads-up about a potential issue. If my means of expressing that were somewhat cynical then it's probably based in my own experience of friends and acquaintances going to BASC for help and finding that unless a case is absolutely clear cut, there's usually some degree of unwillingness to get involved. Again, my opinion doesn't matter here, but frankly I'd rather see a kind of advocacy where they aggressively pursued anything where there's even a small chance of a grant, rather than declining the harder cases or putting the onus on the applicant, but perhaps resources are too limited for that kind of action. However, in spite of all that, if David's prepared to make a public statement on their behalf saying - not unreasonably - that not all of the relevant information is made public in the ShootingUK thread then I'm prepared to accept that. If I were posting it again now, having discovered that on ShootingUK, I'd probably express it differently. Suggest that the title of this thread is changed to something like "Wannabe shooter in trouble?" which would be less provocative and more appropriate given the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I have posted on Shooting UK, but I freely admit not all that often, so thanks very much indeed for brining it to my attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Getting all gubby and aggressive with the licensing authorities (and politicians) is not to my mind, the best way to initially interact with them. In my case, a successful outcome was my BASC regional director phoning the relevant people and getting them to talk sense and back down. I even got an apology. BASC doesn't roll over. I worked in Government Affairs a few years ago for my day job and that meant one to one interaction with politicians on a daily or at least weekly basis. Although my job has/had nothing to do with shooting, I lost no opportunity to discuss shooting when appropriate. What I can tell you, is the high degree of respect that politicians have, on every side of the house, for BASC. And the positive and constructive impression of shooters given by them to decision makers. CA is regarded as the tory party on horseback, even with some conservatives. BASC are credible across the political spectrum. But it is still **** that their ex chief executive has behaved like this, although I don't hold BASC responsible for that. However, there was no way that an organisation so partisan as the CA were ever going to chair a committee/whatever like LAG, and no way would there have been two field sports/shooting organisations on the group. However, LAG do not decide policy. Just make sure we have a conservative government next time and the future of lead is more certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 However, LAG do not decide policy. Just make sure we have a conservative government next time and the future of lead is more certain. Well - I'll likely vote for them (though I expect I'll be "holding my nose" doing it, so to speak), so I'm with you that far. Any other government and we've got more to worry about than the future of lead / shooting, frankly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Any shooter who votes labour needs to have their head (or commitment to shooting) examined. IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 We take as we find in reality. I was proud to be a BASC member for many years, thinking I was doing my bit; unfortunately BASC weren't doing theirs. It still took me a long time to grow as disappointedly disillusioned with them as I did to the point that with great reluctance I cancelled my membership and gave my money elsewhere. It's not pleasant to realise that the organisation you have put your faith and money into for years doesn't have the will nor the clout that you once thought it had. We all have qualifications in hindsight however, but my biggest regret is that it took me as long as it did, and that during that time Swift benefitted from my revenue for as long as he did. The lack of 'clout' doesn't just apply to BASC either. Don't be fooled into believing that ANY of our representatives will be able to withstand a serious governmental stand against shooting, and don't believe the Tories are the shooters friend either. With the exception of the Liberals, shooters have undergone more restrictive legislation though Conservative governments than any other party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 We take as we find in reality. I was proud to be a BASC member for many years, thinking I was doing my bit; unfortunately BASC weren't doing theirs. It still took me a long time to grow as disappointedly disillusioned with them as I did to the point that with great reluctance I cancelled my membership and gave my money elsewhere. It's not pleasant to realise that the organisation you have put your faith and money into for years doesn't have the will nor the clout that you once thought it had. We all have qualifications in hindsight however, but my biggest regret is that it took me as long as it did, and that during that time Swift benefitted from my revenue for as long as he did. The lack of 'clout' doesn't just apply to BASC either. Don't be fooled into believing that ANY of our representatives will be able to withstand a serious governmental stand against shooting, and don't believe the Tories are the shooters friend either. With the exception of the Liberals, shooters have undergone more restrictive legislation though Conservative governments than any other party. So what do you think they (BASC in this instance) should do? And are you happy with what your current organisation is doing? I'd be keen to know of an organisation with the clout that you're seeking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 So what do you think they (BASC in this instance) should do? And are you happy with what your current organisation is doing? I'd be keen to know of an organisation with the clout that you're seeking. In what instance, the issue of this topic? Hasn't David BASC explained what they're doing in this instance? I am very happy with the advice I have so far received from my current organisation, but in this instance, or as far as this issue is concerned my organisation isn't involved. The person in question is a BASC member. There are no organisations with the clout I would like, unfortunately. As I've said before, the UK doesn't have the members and most of those members our organisations have don't have the will to complain, let alone fight. Following the shootings by Derek Bird, BASC for once were well on the case, but less than 2% of UK shooters petitioned the Government or the inquiry panel, and they didn't even have to write, simply click a few buttons set up for them by their shooting organisations. If you are happy with BASC, then good for you, many are, but some aren't. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 In what instance, the issue of this topic? Hasn't David BASC explained what they're doing in this instance? I am very happy with the advice I have so far received from my current organisation, but in this instance, or as far as this issue is concerned my organisation isn't involved. The person in question is a BASC member. There are no organisations with the clout I would like, unfortunately. As I've said before, the UK doesn't have the members and most of those members our organisations have don't have the will to complain, let alone fight. Following the shootings by Derek Bird, BASC for once were well on the case, but less than 2% of UK shooters petitioned the Government or the inquiry panel, and they didn't even have to write, simply click a few buttons set up for them by their shooting organisations. If you are happy with BASC, then good for you, many are, but some aren't. You pays your money, you takes your choice. I was really thinking of the point you raised - 'doesn't have the will nor the clout that you once thought it had'. What could BASC do to improve on what they are currently doing in your opinion or demonstrate what you're looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drut Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Just nipped across & read the topic on other forum:a rather convoluted story that has left me baffled.Fortunately my experiences with Northumbria(& BASC)have been fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I'm sorry to say that BASC can do nothing to improve on what they are currently doing entirely due to the fact you quoted above. In my opinion and experience they have demonstrated that they are incapable of either, and have demonstrated it many times over many years. Like I said, it's not just BASC. Have a look through the recent past of UK shooting legislation. You don't need to go any further back than the 1960's or 1970's if you want. See what we had when our mainstream shooting organisations came into being, and what we have lost since then against what we have gained, and the role those shooting organisations have played in the aspects of all of this. It doesn't make for reassuring reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 What is needed is a large, powerful shooting organisation, regardless of what some may say or think, the real fact is that shooting would be in a far less favorable position now if it had not been for what BASC has delivered over the past 30 years or more.. and that's with an average membership level of around 90,000..we can only deliver based on the resources we have, obviously...imagine what could have been delivered with a membership and consequential resource of 300,000... The larger and more powerful BASC becomes the more we can deliver for shooting and shooters, that's a simple fact. Remember that the fact is that the majority of shooters have not bothered to join a shooting organisation... pitiful. If some choose to leave BASC and take away resources and put their money into organisations that, with all due respect, have far fewer resources and political impact then have the good grace to voice your concerns about what they re failing to deliver. If you really want to make a difference to the future of shooting then put you resources behind the organisation that is most likely to deliver, that already has the best contacts to support shooting in Parliament and with ACPO, the Home Office and police licensing authorities. Its your choice. BASC will never be able to satisfy all the people all the time, but we will always do our best to satisfy most of the people most of the time and do all we can. Ex members attacking BASC will deliver absolutely nothing for shooting, current members getting more involved with BASC and encouraging others to join and get involved will deliver a very powerful organisation indeed. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I have never being asked anything about friends or family in an interview with a FEO. The police seem to be making it up as they go along in England. Edited February 17, 2015 by ordnance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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