spandit Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 I've been playing with loads today. I started with 21.9 grains of H322 and went up in 0.3gr increments. However, 22.5gr gave worse results than 22.2gr so decided to load with 22.3gr because it seemed apt for a .223! Anyway, once I'd settled on the load, using new brass (and 55gr FMJ bullets), I changed to Nosler Varmageddon bullets (still 55gr) and the results were slightly better (using www.creffield.com/ballistics.php) Once I'd tested all of those, I decided to reload some fired cases. I resized 5 of the Remington cases that I'd just fired as well as 5 mixed cases (PPU, Hornady, Sako, Norma and Federal). Now, I know 5 shots is probably not statistically significant but the SD was lower than the Remington cases (27.92 vs 37.34) and the ES was lower too. The grouping was 2 holes (this is a 2" target, the top group is with mixed cases) I'm guessing this is a fairly conservative load as the velocities achieved were lower than factory ammo but I doubt Charlie will notice the difference between 2950 and 3000 fps!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 would love to see the same load put through 5 of each of the case brands either one of those groups is fine so long as you know the POI is going to stay the same you may find that some cases are thicker and give slightly high pressures, this does not automatically mean they will impact higher on the same target I have a 60gr load that impacts exactly 2" higher than a 52gr load doing 3-400fps more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 This could get expensive Forgot to mention these were loaded using the Lee powder measure, rather than painstakingly by hand using the scales. I'd be interested to know actually how many case manufacturers there are out there - do they just stamp their name on a generic case or does each brand make their own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 I'd be interested to know actually how many case manufacturers there are out there - do they just stamp their name on a generic case or does each brand make their own? http://www.weatherbyrifler.com/Download/Pics/NormaOEM.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) Ah! Thanks for that! I see Lapua and Sako are both listed Need to weigh some empty cases & see how they compare - assuming the outer dimensions are pretty accurate Edited April 7, 2015 by spandit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 It's the internal volume of the case that's important, fill each one with water and weigh it, you can weigh the empty case first then subtract that from the filled case weight to get a comparable figure for each manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 It's the internal volume of the case that's important, fill each one with water and weigh it, you can weigh the empty case first then subtract that from the filled case weight to get a comparable figure for each manufacturer. I know that, but the outer dimensions should be made pretty accurately to conform to the .223Rem specification so any variation will be down to wall thickness. I was planning on weighing a few and getting an average Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullet1747 Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Why use the target the blue circles were just the job ,every one inside different diameter circles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Why use the target the blue circles were just the job ,every one inside different diameter circles Like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Ah! Thanks for that! I see Lapua and Sako are both listed Need to weigh some empty cases & see how they compare - assuming the outer dimensions are pretty accurate Or read this http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.HTML Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 would love to see the same load put through 5 of each of the case brands either one of those groups is fine so long as you know the POI is going to stay the same you may find that some cases are thicker and give slightly high pressures, this does not automatically mean they will impact higher on the same target I have a 60gr load that impacts exactly 2" higher than a 52gr load doing 3-400fps more Usually because the slower leaves the barrel in a higher angle of recoil. This chap should not have any pressure issues at these velocities . I use to get these velocities from 222 with 55#. U. Come on the bullies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 This could get expensive Forgot to mention these were loaded using the Lee powder measure, rather than painstakingly by hand using the scales. I'd be interested to know actually how many case manufacturers there are out there - do they just stamp their name on a generic case or does each brand make their own? there is much more interchange between different manufacturers these days than years ago. Its harder to know who really makes what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Right. I've currently loaded 5 each of the following: Norma, Sako, PPU and Hornady. I would have loaded FC but the primer pockets are crimped and I didn't have time to set up the lathe. Again, using 22.3gr of H322 with Hornady FMJ 55gr bullets (didn't want to waste my Varmaggedon bullets). Loaded using the Lee powder measure which I'm not convinced is as accurate as loading each one individually with the scales, but that takes ages and this way is really quick. As mentioned, the pressures are not going to be massively different but I want to see if I can just grab any old case to reload it, rather than dialling a different powder weight for each brand - let's be honest, if I can get a sub-4" group at 100yds then that's acceptable - doesn't need to be single hole. My groups so far have been bench rested - really need to practice unsupported... Edited April 8, 2015 by spandit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Strangely, for being a cheap bit of kit, the Lee Perfect Powder measure is one of the most accurate and holds its own against measures costing a lot more. As always it depends on the type of powder being thrown (extruded, flake, spherical etc.) but that's a common factor with almost all volume throwing powder measures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 I want an accurate rifle but optimising things to the nth degree is impractical & far beyond my shooting skill anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Just measure direct to the scales pan then trickle to the correct charge, fairly quick and accurate. 322 being quite small for a stick powder does measure quite well from the lee but larger grain and smaller ball can be a pain. Edited April 8, 2015 by Amazed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodlander Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 I agree. That's your biggest variable right there. My Lee powder measure can be .3 or .4 of a grain out every time. You'll never learn anything until you're using the same amount of powder for every shot. And then there's COAL and case length,but maybe best not to go there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) more to do with where on the harmonic curve the muzzle is when the bullet exits just as likely to go low or left or right I agree. That's your biggest variable right there. My Lee powder measure can be .3 or .4 of a grain out every time. You'll never learn anything until you're using the same amount of powder for every shot. And then there's COAL and case length,but maybe best not to go there yet. then he is not doing it right!! I have a 2nd hand Lee Thrower and a set of dippers no fancy scales, just a set of eBaytastic electronic ones with a 0.2gr tolerance that I someotimes use to check loads intemittently I have produced ammo for .222, .243, .270, .308 and .300wm using these "variable" all shoot well inside 1/2-1 MOA (some shoot in the 0.1-0.2 range) .308 group 168gr SMK over 44gr N140 30WM 208gr Amax over 69.8gr N160 good technique and consistency using throwers and dippers will see consistent results you will have more variable from **** neck tension than a 0.2gr overload Edited April 9, 2015 by Bewsher500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 I've now loaded 5xFederal (crimped pockets... rrrrrrr) and realised I had a load of Winchester too so did 5 of those'n'all. Not sure when I'm going to get to fire them but do like making a round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Finally got round to shooting the things. The Norma and Sako (1st and 3rd) were both single hole groups. The PPU had one flyer (giving about an inch group at 50 yards). The Hornady, Federal and Winchester got progressively worse - whether this is due to the barrel heating up (although I did notice the mod was loose about half way through) or the fact that I was getting a bit bored and didn't give as much attention as when I first started, I don't know. The worst grouping was about 30mm (sorry to mix imperial/metric!) Brand Average ES SD Norma 2988 131.0 59.90 PPU 2924 56.0 22.71 Sako 2963 46.0 18.89 Hornady 2946 84.0 33.74 Federal 2951 70.0 27.55 Winchester 2917 69.0 26.45 (all) 2948 188.0 39.46 The Sako grouping was marginally worse than the Norma (which oddly had the worst statistics, although over only 5 shots per brand, not sure how statistically significant they are). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 On further analysis, the Hornady group was worst, with 1.44 MOA, best being Sako with 0.397 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 You do realise you can drive yourself totally mad once you start down this road don't you? Been there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted May 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 You do realise you can drive yourself totally mad once you start down this road don't you? Been there! You wait until you see the target analysis software I've written! I'll post it up later (it's web based) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted May 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 OK, here is the analysis, using the software I wrote. The software calculates the group size (using mean radius) and scales the target appropriately, so that the shots fill 80% of the image (shot hole size scales too, so entering a larger calibre will show bigger holes): Norma: PPU: Sako: Hornady: Federal: Winchester: All: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 (edited) Excellent work with the software - it looks like it compares very well with "on target" but not sure how you are arriving at your group size? That looks like a 1.38" or 2.64 moa group to me. Edited May 3, 2015 by 1066 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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