markbivvy Posted March 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 i have a mate 35 year old 3 kids buying his house. i gave him the only 2 shoots he has, if you where to ask this man for 60 notes to carry on shooting he would sell his gun tomorrow. he is not tight he just could not afford to do it. he is not bothered if he shoots anything, he just likes to be out there, its a break for him. whats the basc going to do to help him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 I don't know whether Hunter_zero is referring to weekend shooting, but the story of two hides to a rape field does not apply anywhere in Kent that I know of. Its rare to hear many gunshots on a midweek day and apart from a couple of hot spots, its unusual to hear that many at the weekend. As I said earlier, this must be a very regional thing. I suppose proposing this approach to Farmers/Landowners and then insisting that any resulting shooters/syndicate members are members of BASC, is a very beneficial spin off for BASC. That is probably the motivation behind this policy. The BASC made earlier comments detrimental to Pigeon Guides and Sporting Agencies buying up the pigeon shooting and then letting days, but this approach by them doesn't seem much more beneficial to the average pigeon shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 I thought it was the British Association for Shooting and Conservation. Not the British Association for Making Farmers More Money and Ensuring Everyone Pays More Membership BAMFMMEEPMM, not got the same ring to it, though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Dear All, Thank you for the comments - much appreciated. Firtly- please remember that BASC exists first an foremost to safeguard the future of shooting- that is what our constitution says and that is what we do. Secondly, as a membership organisation we have to look after the interests of ALL our members- regardless of what their preffered shooting may be. FInmally if we at BASC do not keep encouraging shooting on farmland in a structured way I can assure you that other diversification projects will over take hsooting and we will ALL lose out! We certrianly do not just look after the 'toffs' or just the driven shooter - we look after all forms of shooter. Remember, before we aproeched farmers in the South West of Engalnd we researched our members in the Region first to seek thier views and responded / repored accordingly. It was clear from the metings and from the membership as I have reported, that there was a willingness of game shoots to share the shooting with pigen and rabbit shooters. Where have I said that BASC are going to approach your shooting tennant and encourage them to make you pay or pay more for your shooting? If I have this impression I am sorry as this is certianly NOT the objective of this project! Glad that some of you have taken a look at the suggested shooting lease- can I suggest that even if you do not pay for your shooting- having a formal agrement in place is a good idea. OK I know that loads of you will obnect ot doing this- but we hear of so many shoots being lost because there was no formal agreement in place- the farm chaged hands and so did the shooting! OK if you don't want to do it then that is up to you - but you have been warned. Remember, farms are changing hands at the higest rate that many can remember- and some are going out of business. Where do we promote shooting to farmers? in a magazine called British Farmer & Grower which is sent to all NFU farmer members. As I have said time and time again the motivation behind this project is to encourage more farmers to let shooting- and yes some farmers will want to be paid for the game shooting rights, wildfowling and stalking. But as I have said there are opportunites for game shoots to share the shooting with pigeon shooters. Farmers will still want help from pigeon shooters to control the pests and will not charge and long may this continue - perhpse we (BASC) need to put more emphasis on this on our adverts in the farming press- what do you think? Several of you have said that you have had problems getting pigeon shoting when the farm is let to a game shoot. I have said on this thread that I am prprepared to encourage game shoots to share the shooting with pigeon / rabbit shooters- but non of you have said what you think about htis idea- but have asked what BASC is trying do for the pigeon shooter!!!! OK guys what else do you want me to do for the pigeon shooter apart from asking game shoots not to exclude you, and for farmers to welcome you? D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Farmers will still want help from pigeon shooters to control the pests and will not charge and long may this continue - perhpse we (BASC) need to put more emphasis on this on our adverts in the farming press- what do you think? Wholly agree with that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rarms Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 If the farmer wants to charge for shooting thats up to him. If I was a farmer then I would be charging people to shoot if they were willing to pay! Who wouldn't! I don't particularly think they have handled every situation they have come up against well. However I get membership combined with my wildfowling club so I don't reall get a choice. That said, I do enjoy being able to phone up and talk to the people at BASC when I need advice regarding guns/shooting etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Rams, thanks for the input- Do we always get everting 100% correct- probably not! But who does? WHen you go with the majority you always going to upset somone -indeed I was discussing htis very fact with a group of wildfowlers last weekend aout coastal access - but thats another story. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 To advise Farmers/Landowners of the advantages of renting their shooting rights for game and deer stalking is all very well, this is "sporting shooting" and is traditionally paid for. Don't forget, pigeon shooting (also rabbits. squirrels, foxes etc) is pest control, they are agricultural vermin, which is why they are covered by the General Licence. Start giving the impression that pigeon shooting is "sporting shooting" and you will have us all paying for it and a Close Season will shortly follow. Whilst we appreciate the skills we need to outwit the pigeon, it is pest control first and foremost. We appreciate the farmer and we hope he appreciates us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 As i have said - BASC is all things to All Shooters - 'Sporting Shoters' and pigeon / rabbit shooters. Some shooting is paid for, some shooting is not - this will never change. BASC will carry on promoting shooting to farmers, and yes- promoting BASC members to farmers- after all our members pay us their hard earned cash and they will come come first. I am as good as my word and I will add a 'flash' to my adverts in BFG saying ' Remembers shooters will help you control pests such as rabbits & pigeons for FREE!' How about that - anyone got any other suggestions? I will also write to ALL my affilaited clubs and syndicates asking which ones will share thier shooting. Remember guys you know where I am if you have anything to say to me - if you want to post it on this forum - fine, if you want to contact my direct = fine - i am here - I am on you side! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Rams, thanks for the input- Do we always get everting 100% correct- probably not! But who does? WHen you go with the majority you always going to upset somone -indeed I was discussing htis very fact with a group of wildfowlers last weekend aout coastal access - but thats another story. D This is one of my points david.. WHAT MAJORITY..Basc decided to consult who excatly?before doing this.Of course farmers are going to be interested if you ask them if they want to make some more money,anybody in any business is always interested in making more money.You didnt ask the grass roots members because you know what the response would have been.As i have said BASC have lost touch with the average shooting man and trying to introduce paying for what used to be free so that BASC can cream a little off the top with compulsory membership just highlights what i am saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 I don't doubt David's commitment to shooting, and there are some top guys at BASC, who do a lot of good work. However, on this one... I definitely disagree with them. Farmers should not need to be told that people will control their pests- and money spent advertising such a fact is a waste. I wonder if some bod at BASC has come up with a 'smart idea' of all shooters paying for shooting from a political standpoint. As this will allow to them to say shooting contributes £X to the economy. Whilst money is certainly one argument to defend shooting, I don't think it's a very good one and there are many many other better reasons for keeping shooting. In any case I really don't see why BASC is so keen to meddle with affairs, and am certainly against it. Telling the farmer they can charge for shooting, is not going to increase the number of shooters or increase the availability of it (both of which should be one of BASC's aims). You only have to look at the members of this forum, and how many people who have got involved with shooting because of being taken out. If anything I think BASC should give money or organise sponsored equipment for small clay pigeon clubs like some of the excellent ones members on this forum run. If BASC want to be seen to be getting people involved in shooting then this is the way, in my opinion. These people will learn first hand and even from PW about how to get land. If BASC's members are complaining about a lack of shooting then perhaps you should mention the pw website and forum for advice on getting land, that does not involve throwing money at the problem. //Offtopic// I have recently been sent CA voting slips and information on all candidates, when I was a member of BASC (5 years) I don't remember ever receiving this, although elections were mentioned in the magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted March 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 As i have said - BASC is all things to All Shooters - 'Sporting Shoters' and pigeon / rabbit shooters. Some shooting is paid for, some shooting is not - this will never change. BASC will carry on promoting shooting to farmers, and yes- promoting BASC members to farmers- after all our members pay us their hard earned cash and they will come come first. I am as good as my word and I will add a 'flash' to my adverts in BFG saying ' Remembers shooters will help you control pests such as rabbits & pigeons for FREE!' How about that - anyone got any other suggestions? I will also write to ALL my affilaited clubs and syndicates asking which ones will share thier shooting. Remember guys you know where I am if you have anything to say to me - if you want to post it on this forum - fine, if you want to contact my direct = fine - i am here - I am on you side! David David Ilsley Head of Membership Marketing BASC Membership Marketing. hmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Yes mark, Thats my job - thanks for posting it but your point? Sorry if any of you did not know who I am! My job is to help promote BASC, recruit new members, keep existing members, develop the membership package, work with others to promote the BASC brand. So Teal says that BASC should NOT advertise to farmers that shooters are ready willing and able to help them....this is not the feeback I thought I got from most of you - but if I am mistaken let me know. How much is generated from Shooting- read the report it is on the BASC web site - home page!! A joint report commissiond by not only BASC if you bother to look. Teal suggests this formum for new pigeon shooting opportunities and advicce - great how about you guys writing a piece that i can publish? I can assure you Teal that advertising form ore shooting opportunites and offering htis as a service is a good way od opening doors for shooters - whay do you think it is not? If there are guys on this forum running clay shoots or other clubs that attract or want to attract new shooters then please let me know and I will promote it free of charge- contact me at HQ on david.ilsley@basc.org.uk - I will promote htis not only ot my members but to everyone who visits the GoShooting site. Teal - ALL BASC members are sent voting forms. All members are sent ful details of all candidates. Who did BASC consult before we started promoting shooting...our members in the area of the South West as ths is where the project was launched. As the project moves around the UK, members in the relevent Counties will be sent the same questionnaire. As it goes not all farmers do want to charge loads for shooting - others honestly had not thought of opening them selves up for shooting- either on a freee or paid for basis - but they will now! So you it has provided new opportunites and not all for loads of cash - opinion based on facr not feeling.r - so was this project woth while - you bet! And as I have said will will roll this our accross the country. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerico Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 I'm on the fence with this one, I've had no luck getting permission and the only shooting I get is at the airgun farm for £10 a day, Although it's only 30 miles away it's a pain to get to because my only transport is a lil motorbike, if it weren’t for the distance I would be there about 6 times a month. As I have no permission it is a godsend when I do get over. My aim is to get permission locally, I work shifts so that I can partake in my hobbies (7on 7off) so if I got somewhere local I could spend up to 14 days a month on pest control if I wanted to, either a whole day, night or just pop over for a couple of hours. If a local farmer said give me a £20 a month drink and you can come and go as you please I would be tempted if it wouldn't knock anybody else off the land, but then what’s to stop him kicking you off if someone else come along 3 months down the line and offered £50 a month or whatever, where does it end? I wouldn't mind giving a farmer a small drink if the permission was secure, I know it's pest control but I'm not going to kid myself that I'm doing the farmer a favour, I want to be there as much as he wants rid of the pests. I pay for the privilege of working, I pay to be able to drive on the roads and I pay up to £10 to sit on bank fishing for 12 hours so I don't have a big problem giving a farmer a drink if he allows me to stalk a few bunnies on his land. But like I said where does it end............ ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ £Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 David, my point is that whilst it is not a bad idea. I feel that for an organisation dedicated to securing shootings future, paying money to advertise to farmers that there are people who want to control there pests, is a mistake and that money would be better spent elsewhere. I suspect almost all farmers know that people are willing to shoot over there land to control pests. If they don't then that is the fault of the people who supposedly want to control these pests and live in those areas. I certainly don't feel that subscription money should be wasted on people who are too lazy to follow the simple guidelines of getting permission. The information for which is all on this site, but there is no one 'magic formula'. I feel that a more cost effective solution for an organisation with limited resources would be to publish in your magazine information that is available on this website. It should be remembered though that there is no one magic solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Teal, As I have said - what information do you want me to publish? Have you seen the 'Finding Shooting' booklet / pdf on the GoShooting site Winchester- Thanks for the comment that when BASC gets involved the job is ******** - your evidence? The old saying 'think berore you post' is probably relevent! Lets not fight each other- constructive debate yes- pointless accusations NO THANKS Jerico, As I have said before get a propper agreement in place then you are protected againt the guy who can simply try to buy your shooting rights from under you D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 There is a strong suggestion that regardless of any negative comments made here, that BASC will continue to advise Farmers that they should open their land for shooting and the incentive being they can charge for this facility. As I have said before, thats fine for deer stalking and game shooting, where the majority of participants turn up on the day and enjoy their sport. I belong to a Game syndicate and I am not knocking that type of shooting, but it is not as time intensive as pigeon shooting. How many of us spend session after session just chasing the pigeons from one field to another, acting as mobile bird scarers. We drive miles and rearrange domestic obligations, because the farmer phones and says the "the fields are blue with birds", then we spend all day looking for a pigeon. We spend a considerable amount of money on the accessories to our shooting (not counting guns and cartridges), this is also unique to our activity. A lot of pigeons shooters can't afford the costs associated with game shooting, or stalking. It is and (hopefully) will always be the "poor mans" end of the shooting spectrum. Let the BASC extol the benefits of free vermin control, by insured members to Farmers/Landowners, but leave out any suggestions of potential financial reward. Also add a rider that if the Farmer is happy with his current vermin control arrangements, then the BASC are not seeking to supplant those. We do not need a situation where the only pigeon shooting available costs money and is only open to BASC members. Despite that probably being very attractive to the BASC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rarms Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 >We do not need a situation where the only pigeon shooting available costs money and is only open to BASC members. There is already plenty of pay for the day pigeon shooting available due to 'enterprising' agents (I believe the forum sponsors are one such 'agent' so you could say we are already supporting the pay to shoot fraternity?). People only ask for BASC membership as they recognise the insurance. My stalking syndicate asks for BASC but not because he is affiliated but because he knows the insurance. I dear say if I didn't have BASC through my wildfowling club that he would have been happy with NGO. It is supply and demand. If a farmer gets his door knocked 3 times a week by people asking to shoot pigeons then he is gonna work out he has something someone wants, and that he can market that. Good luck to him, if people will pay then let them! Blaming the BASC for this charging for vermin shooting is a bit OTT. Look at the airgun farm the chap mentioned earlier. A farmer who already realises he has something people will pay for. And low and behold they will as the chap says. Down my way Ford Rifle ranges about 5 years ago started charging people to shoot vermin on 'guided' trips. I assume this still goes on but I have never actually done it with them, there are people out there who will pay. My point is, if you get shooting for free at the moment you are lucky. If you do a bit of labour or beat on a shoot to get a bit of shooting then fair enough I do a bit of this and am perfectly happy for this. However the farmers are already coming round to the idea of charging people, BASC are not really to blame. If you don't like it don't pay! That said, BASC need to listen to their members, after all, we pay their wages. Maybe David needs to ask at the AGM whether people want this included in their program. Otherwise there are a lot of club members who could be lobbying their club at the next AGM to go somewhere else for their liability insurance........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter_zero Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Yes mark, Thats my job - thanks for posting it but your point? Sorry if any of you did not know who I am! My job is to help promote BASC, recruit new members, keep existing members, develop the membership package, work with others to promote the BASC brand. D From what I can gather from your posts, you are saying that " The BASC are advising farmers to 'charge' for shooting vermin" because "this will secure shooting for BASC members" due to " Farming diversification". For want of a better way, you are basically saying that if farmers charge, then that is income. Income means that farmers will be happy for people to shoot over their farms and in turn that will secure shooting land and as such secure shooting sports for the long term? As an aside, I am not a member of the BASC due to what I perceive as lack of value. I hold private shooting insurance which covers several of my guns, all of my shooting equipment and gives my life insurance whilst shooting. I also have legal cover. Cost? less than the BASC membership fees and I pay by DD each month. From what I understand, with the BASC insurance, a member can only make one claim per year? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Pigeon Guides, Sporting Agencies and Farmers that charge by the day, are facts of life, they have been around for ages and in no way cover the whole country with a monopoly on pigeon shooting land. Also, we can choose to patronise them , or not. Nobody is blaming the BASC for Farmers that charge, or sell their shooting rights to Pigeon Guides, or Sporting Agencies. What I am saying, is that the BASC should not be persuading Farmers/Landowners to sell their pigeon/vermin shooting to BASC members (or anyone else). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rarms Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 >Also, we can choose to patronise them , or not. Indeedly do, if no one chose to pay for it there would be no market and hence no charges, however like so much else in the world, if you want something worth having, you generally have to pay for it. If other pigeon shooters elsewhere in the country didn't pay for vermin shooting then it would not be worth charging for. However by having companies that do charge (like our site sponsor) that is showing 'other' farmers that a reasonable ammount of money can be made! >What I am saying, is that the BASC should not be persuading Farmers/Landowners to sell their >pigeon/vermin shooting to BASC members (or anyone else). Seems to me that far from persuading Farmers to sell the vermin rights the BASC are simply informing the farmers that there is money to be made from this asset. Where traditionally they made their money from the produce they raised they are now being under-cut by cheaper produce from abroad. If the farmers go barkrupt from too little income from produce then you will have no shooting anyway. Incidentally I don't really have an opinion on this, I do and don't like the BASC for different reasons, however like I said I don't have a choice about being a member. If their other members don't like this idea then lobby for it to be put to vote at the AGM I also find it strange that people here are so against paying to shoot when this forum would not exist if it wasn't for the sponsorship money paid by a group who charge people to shoot!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 "I also find it strange that people here are so against paying to shoot when this forum would not exist if it wasn't for the sponsorship money paid by a group who charge people to shoot!!!" That statement is incorrect. This Forum existed without sponsorship in the past and would do so again. Being a member as long as you have, you know this to be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Again and Again and Again I say I have not been lobbying farmers to charge for pigeon / vermin shooting- how many times do I have to say this? Have I made it clear - do you understand? Obviously not so I will say again: BASC ARERE NOT LOBBYING FARMERS TO MAKE THEM ASK FOR PAYMENT OF PIGEON OR ERABBIT SHOOTING I am lobbying famrers to keep shooting available on their land and as they diversify into other income streams. I can assure you that if no one lobbies farmers to keep shooting - then shooting will suffer. As I have said - noto ne else is doing this so if BASC do not do it I can assure you more and more farms will stop having shooting on htier land- then you WILL have somthing ot complain about (I can see it now---where were BASC? why did they not do somthing about it) I have said I will lobby farmers on my ads to keep FOC pigeon shooting - and I ask if the suggested wording was OK of if you wanted me to chage it - Chriky what else can i say? I have said that I will write to BASC clubs and syndicates asking if they wil give access to pigeon shooters and publish the results- what have you said to this? NOTHING. So you dont want me to uncover more free or v low cost pigeon shooting for you? OK, easy no further action from me on that point then?...or will you respond to my suggestion? And John BASC is not just an insurance company! Yes if you want cheap insurance there are loads of options - but what else do you get? And to say you can only make one claim on the BASC polictyi s absolutly wrong! How can you have an insurance policy that will only accept one claim? Nothing wrong the the NGO insurance- public liability insurance is public liability insurance. But make sure you have received what is called a 'Key Facts' document from the insurer / organisation. This is a legal document that lists all of the main inclusions and importantly exclusions of the policy. Some companies don't issue this document---ever wondered why? BASC's poplitical work is value enough for the cost of membership - never has shooting been in such a positive light with the Government- and all thanks to BASC (not your insurance company John!) What price or value will you put on that= the freedom to keep shooting, the freedon to have no closed season on pigeoan & rabbit, the freedon the have a diverse quarry list..... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rarms Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 >This Forum existed without sponsorship in the past and would do so again. Fair play, but I bet the sponsorship helps and as such my comment still stands The site might still exist without sponsorship but not with the bandwidth and resources it has with them, or you wouldn't need them surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted March 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Yes mark, Thats my job - thanks for posting it but your point? Sorry if any of you did not know who I am! i have been pm ed a few times by lads asking what you have to do with the basc. so just pointing it out to them that you are a sales man. a very good one i might add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.