Terminology Acceptable?

[RossEM]

Bored now, your sporting gun is just a name you prefer,it is a weapon,just because you don't like it being called a weapon does not change it's classification.

 

We disagree on classification. I don't prefer one term or the other - what I prefer is that the correct term is used - I believe the correct term is gun, rifle or airgun (sporting guns collectively), not 'weapon.' You are happy to categorise your guns with military firearms - I'm not.

 

I've said here several times that of course sporting guns can be used as weapons, though that is certainly not what they're designed for.

 

In my opinion, to liken your gun, rifle or airgun to an instrument of fighting or defence is the wrong thing to do; using the term 'weapon' should be discouraged as it has strong connotations of violence - and that is totally the opposite of what responsible, safe shooting is all about.

 

For those who insist that to call guns 'weapons' is correct, why are early shotguns called 'fowling - pieces'? Why are .243 CFs known as 'deer rifles'? Why are rook rifles called rook rifles? Why are fixed choke shotguns known as 'game guns'? Why are trap guns called trap guns? Because their design and purpose is sporting, not military.

[welsh1]

We disagree on classification. I don't prefer one term or the other - what I prefer is that the correct term is used - I believe the correct term is gun, rifle or airgun (sporting guns collectively), not 'weapon.' You are happy to categorise your guns with military firearms - I'm not.

 

I've said here several times that of course sporting guns can be used as weapons, though that is certainly not what they're designed for.

 

In my opinion, to liken your gun, rifle or airgun to an instrument of fighting or defence is the wrong thing to do; using the term 'weapon' should be discouraged as it has strong connotations of violence - and that is totally the opposite of what responsible, safe shooting is all about.

 

For those who insist that to call guns 'weapons' is correct, why are early shotguns called 'fowling - pieces'? Why are .243 CFs known as 'deer rifles'? Why are rook rifles called rook rifles? Why are fixed choke shotguns known as 'game guns'? Why are trap guns called trap guns? Because their design and purpose is sporting, not military.

 

They are all weapons,just because people call them different names doesn't change what they are.this is becoming very tedious now, if you are not bright enough to understand the simple concept of all firearms,rifles, shotguns ,being called weapons you should stop posting.

[Scully]

 

 

I've said here several times that of course sporting guns can be used as weapons, though that is certainly not what they're designed for.

 

In my opinion, to liken your gun, rifle or airgun to an instrument of fighting or defence is the wrong thing to do; using the term 'weapon' should be discouraged as it has strong connotations of violence - and that is totally the opposite of what responsible, safe shooting is all about.

 

For those who insist that to call guns 'weapons' is correct, why are early shotguns called 'fowling - pieces'? Why are .243 CFs known as 'deer rifles'? Why are rook rifles called rook rifles? Why are fixed choke shotguns known as 'game guns'? Why are trap guns called trap guns? Because their design and purpose is sporting, not military.

Those are fair points well made, to which I'd agree, but you're facing an uphill struggle I'm afraid. That doesn't mean you should ever stop trying.

[RossEM]

They are all weapons,just because people call them different names doesn't change what they are.this is becoming very tedious now, if you are not bright enough to understand the simple concept of all firearms,rifles, shotguns ,being called weapons you should stop posting.

I understand the concept, I just don't agree with it. You choose to ignore the detail in my posts, repeat the same point (which is flawed) and now you're resorting to insults - it's obvious to anyone reading this thread.

 

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of the history of gun development will be able to tell you that there is a distinction between military weapons and sporting guns.

[panoma1]

Not a 'sporting' gun in sight, just 'deadly weapons' :

http://www.dailymail...s-shooting.html

Yes and all legitimately owned and properly licensed according to the Birmingham Mail!

[wymberley]

Bored now,

 

 

.this is becoming very tedious now,

In which case, there are various options available to you.

[welsh1]

I understand the concept, I just don't agree with it. You choose to ignore the detail in my posts, repeat the same point (which is flawed) and now you're resorting to insults - it's obvious to anyone reading this thread.

 

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of the history of gun development will be able to tell you that there is a distinction between military weapons and sporting guns.

 

Let's try a differnt tack just for you,I have a brittany spaniel, he is a soft old thing and has a soft mouth and brings me back game I have shot.

My mate works for a security company ,he has an Alsatian which is a lovely dog,but on command will attack you and bring you to the floor and even heavily padded you will have a bruised arm.

 

One of the above is placid and used socially,the othe aggressive and used commercially,they both have different names but most importantly they are both still dogs.

 

The same analogy is used for firearms,rifles,pistols,shotguns etc,they have a collective name and that is weapons yet again I will say it.

Just because you want to call your rifle a sporting rifle does not change the fact that it belongs in the weapons category .

So if you are saying you understand the concept why do you keep trying to argue a point that isn't valid?long ago I said on this thread that I didn't call my rifles and shotguns weapons,and we all agree that it is a term rarely used,but it is a fact that it is a collective name,and just because you don't like it is not going to make that fact change.

Edited June 23, 2015 by welsh1

[Savhmr]

 

We disagree on classification. I don't prefer one term or the other - what I prefer is that the correct term is used - I believe the correct term is gun, rifle or airgun (sporting guns collectively), not 'weapon.' You are happy to categorise your guns with military firearms - I'm not.

 

I've said here several times that of course sporting guns can be used as weapons, though that is certainly not what they're designed for.

 

In my opinion, to liken your gun, rifle or airgun to an instrument of fighting or defence is the wrong thing to do; using the term 'weapon' should be discouraged as it has strong connotations of violence - and that is totally the opposite of what responsible, safe shooting is all about.

 

For those who insist that to call guns 'weapons' is correct, why are early shotguns called 'fowling - pieces'? Why are .243 CFs known as 'deer rifles'? Why are rook rifles called rook rifles? Why are fixed choke shotguns known as 'game guns'? Why are trap guns called trap guns? Because their design and purpose is sporting, not military.

 

 

Exactly. There's those saying "you're wrong; it's black and white; all guns are weapons" and that, I am afraid is the sort of unthinking, scaremongering sensationalist terminology used to describe a rifle which the press and uneducated love to use as a sound bite. By the same token, all of our kitchen knives need re-classification as "kitchen weapons", the same going for pick axe handles, rounders bats and tennis racquets. Any bloomin' thing can be used and called a weapon if the intent is there.

 

If being pernickety about it, FAC guns and rifles can be broken down into various classification. Military (large calibre/centrefire and designed) "weapons" can be held on ticket under certain circumstances (eg target use). For sporting use, especially small bore stuff and most especially rimfire, are all sporting rifles. That is the correct term. If you want to go off your rocker and use yours as a weapon, then don't be surprised at what happens next, probably involving armed police. That sounds a ridiculous thing to say, but so does the implication by terminology of a sporting small bore bolt action rifle as something used with intent to injure or maim someone. I don't take out weapons against duck, rabbit and pheasant, I take sporting guns designed specifically for that purpose and NO OTHER.

 

Of course you can have a mishap and accidents happen. That doesn't imply intent to injure so even in a tragic accident, it isn't a weapon at fault, it's the plonker whose unsafe handling of a firearm has resulted in injury, NO different to someone driving dangerously with intent to injure, injuring someone else in a collision. The car is a far more effective "weapon" than any small bore sporting rifle yet we never have the news title "weapon crashes into pedestrians".

 

The terminology is a throwback to the 1920 Firearms Act and for those needing to read up on their history to find out why so many weapons were allowed up until then (correct terminology) then feel free.

 

I shall continue to use the correct terminology and no amount of pantomime "oh no it's not" will ever change my or many others' perception. If you think it's petty and boring then DON'T POST, simple!

[welsh1]

Nope, they are still weapons,call them anything you want but at the end of the day they will still be weapons

[sitsinhedges]

Nope, they are still weapons,call them anything you want but at the end of the day they will still be weapons

wrong

[welsh1]

wrong

Don't think so

[Savhmr]

Nope, they are still weapons,call them anything you want but at the end of the day they will still be weapons

 

Sigh.....No they are not unless used as such. They are what they are...rifles. Doesn't anyone arguing against get it yet? To refer to our rifles as weapons gives off completely the wrong message to non-shooters and is irresponsible imho. I guess we'll have to simply agree to disagree and let this thread die a slow death...hopefully soon

[welsh1]

Sorry to disappoint you but this evening I armed myself with my hmr which is my weapon of choice, and have been trying to call a fox in for the last 20 minutes. Again while you may not like the word and the way it is used it is correct terminology, and there is no way of escaping that. If you are so concerned about how people who shoot are portrayed then maybe you should start a campaign to get sporting pictures taken down, after all the images in there would upset far more people than the word weapon would. Or is it OK to show the bodies of dead animals shot with sporting rifles got to go my weapon needs to find Mr Fox, will post a pic up if I get him.

[RossEM]

The Spaniel/Alsatian analogy is wrong (again) - the correct term would be 'Canidae' as that is the correct collective term for canine animals.

 

Read this http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/weapon

 

There is categorically no inclusion of sporting use in the English dictionary definition of 'weapon.' Neither does the definition make any reference to the word 'weapon' as a collective term for guns.

 

If you still think you're right and all this is a some sort of giant mistake, you may want to take it up with the OED. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are the authority.

 

"I'm right, you're wrong" doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[welsh1]

The Spaniel/Alsatian analogy is wrong (again) - the correct term would be 'Canidae' as that is the correct collective term for canine animals.

 

Read this http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/weapon

 

There is categorically no inclusion of sporting use in the English dictionary definition of 'weapon.' Neither does the definition make any reference to the word 'weapon' as a collective term for guns.

 

If you still think you're right and all this is a some sort of giant mistake, you may want to take it up with the OED. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are the authority.

 

"I'm right, you're wrong" doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

OK ross the collective term was wrong but the analogy still holds, seeing as you are so keen as using the oed as the definitive answer, do me a favour open your link and in the search bar type gun, please tell me how it defines a gun, feel free to share it with the collective

[RossEM]

How on earth can your analogy "still hold" if, as you admit, you've got the collective term wrong?That's like saying "I'm wrong, but I'm still right in principle..."

 

I'll spell this out yet again for you: 'gun' is not the correct collective term. Strictly speaking, rifles should not be termed as such.There's no entry for sporting guns, but you can search for shotgun or rifle. Neither have the word weapon in the definition.

[welsh1]

How on earth can your analogy "still hold" if, as you admit, you've got the collective term wrong?That's like saying "I'm wrong, but I'm still right in principle..."

 

I'll spell this out yet again for you: 'gun' is not the correct collective term. Strictly speaking, rifles should not be termed as such.There's no entry for sporting guns, but you can search for shotgun or rifle. Neither have the word weapon in the definition.

 

The analogy still holds because it was showing a dog used for peaceful purposes with a type of name and then a dog used for violent purposes with a different name ,but they were both still dogs, or canidae as you would like it.

 

The same as a gun used for clays and named something is the same as a gun used for shooting foxes is named something else but they are both still weapons.

 

Did you type guns into your oed search bar?using your words,"if you still think your right and this is all some sort of giant mistake ,you may want to take it up with the OED correct me if I am wrong but they are the authority"

 

So what does the OED say a gun is?

There's no entry for sporting gun, because there are no sporting guns, it is a gun, which is a weapon,you just call it a sporting gun.a shotgun is defined as a smooth bore gun,what's the definition of gun? A rifle is defined as a gun,sorry to keep going on but have you looked up the definition of gun yet?

Edited June 24, 2015 by welsh1

[Mike737]

Oh come on gents, can't you agree to differ? A rose by any other name... What does it matter?

 

Mike.

[RossEM]

The analogy still holds because it was showing a dog used for peaceful purposes with a type of name and then a dog used for violent purposes with a different name ,but they were both still dogs, or canidae as you would like it.

 

The same as a gun used for clays and named something is the same as a gun used for shooting foxes is named something else but they are both still weapons.

 

Did you type guns into your oed search bar?using your words,"if you still think your right and this is all some sort of giant mistake ,you may want to take it up with the OED correct me if I am wrong but they are the authority"

 

So what does the OED say a gun is?

There's no entry for sporting gun, because there are no sporting guns, it is a gun, which is a weapon,you just call it a sporting gun.a shotgun is defined as a smooth bore gun,what's the definition of gun? A rifle is defined as a gun,sorry to keep going on but have you looked up the definition of gun yet?

I don't think it does hold - if you were to equate this to our argument, one is a gundog, the other is a guard dog (breeding equating to design.) You would be right in saying both dogs are Canidae.

 

The crux of this whole thing, where we disagree, is that my belief that term 'Canidae' is the correct collective term for all canine animals, whereas the term 'Weapons' refers only to guns designed and/or used for fighting and/or defence - as the OED says. If we equate the term 'Weapons' to 'Canidae', the correct term may be guard dog or fighting dog.

 

I have searched this pretty exhaustively and have no reason to think otherwise. To put it another way, in my opinion the most obviously incorrect point in your argument is that you believe the word 'Weapon' is a catch-all term for guns, when in reality it is a subgroup. Importantly, the collective term 'Canidae' does not define one particular subgroup (as the term 'Weapon' does) and similarly nor does the term 'Gun.' The OED definition of 'Gun' is indeed worded badly, as it suggests that all guns are weapons - we both know that is not true as there are several types of gun that would be patently useless as weapons, even if they had been designed as such. I might even email them about it. Dictionary definitions of objects should describe their correct use, otherwise it's easy to misinterpret and get facts wrong - as frequently the general public and the press do in relation to guns.

 

I am asking that you and others use the correct term for each subgroup - for instance, a rifle designed & used for sporting purposes is a Sporting Rifle. A rifle designed & used for military purposes is a Military Rifle. I would only use the term 'Weapon' to describe an implement which is clearly designed to, or has been used to, cause bodily harm to humans.To further illustrate this, it is indicative of the purpose of military weapons that they are designed specifically to produce high rates of fire and have capacity to hold high multiples of rounds - in addition their construction bears only consideration to hard use and reliability. As such, guns & rifles designed for sporting purposes are only distantly related to Military Rifles in terms of the design of the centrefire cartridge - other than that, a Purdey Sidelock has very little in common with a GPMG, for instance.

Edited June 24, 2015 by RossEM

[welsh1]

Ross what is the problem , asking me to use a different term rather than weapon when you yourself stated that the definitive definition was to be found in OED and what does it say about guns?

gun

See definition in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

Line breaks: gun

Pronunciation: /ɡʌn/

Definition of gun in English: noun

1A weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelledby explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise.

And what about shot guns?

shotgun

See definition in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

Line breaks: shot|gun

Pronunciation: /ˈʃɒtɡʌn/

Definition of shotgun in English: noun

1A smooth-bore gun for firing small shot at short range.

EXAMPLE SENTENCES

In your very own words Ross,

 

"If you still think you're right and all this is a some sort of giant mistake, you may want to take it up with the OED. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are the authority."

[RossEM]

You've just quoted the OED definition of Gun as being "a weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force..."

As I stated in a previous post (and incidentally the most extreme example I can think of) a humane killing tool would fit that description - these are demonstrably not weapons, you and I both know that, and therefore the wording of the definition is misleading - I might contact the OED about this, as I suggested you do; they are the authority, as I said.

 

In fact I stated that the OED definition of Weapon includes no reference to sporting use of guns, but crucially it does make reference to their offensive/defensive purpose, which I think is the most relevant point in our disagreement. You are correct in stating that there is no entry in the OED for Sporting Guns, but other dictionaries such as Collins appear to. In the OED and every other dictionary I've searched, the term Weapon is defined as having military purpose. Therefore I don't own a weapon and would be incorrect in describing my shotgun as such.

 

Do you have any comments to make regarding my point(s) on the differences in design between military and sporting guns? I ask because I believe it is pertinent to their purpose and usage, and therefore to the terminology which should correctly and accurately describe them.

Edited June 24, 2015 by RossEM

[RossEM]

In addition, in each of the dictionary definitions I've looked at, there is no reference to 'Weapon' as being a collective term for guns. It is a collective term for offensive & defensive implements.

[welsh1]

Are you still trying to say that OED who you first stated were the authority are now wrong?

 

Why are you on about a humane killing tool,that is also a weapon.

 

You still are not getting the point and i have said it numerous times,you can call anything you want anything you want, but that won't change what they actually are,and i have said that i tend not to call my rifles and shotguns weapons, but that does not alter the fact that they are weapons.

 

You have actually shown this to be true by quoting the OED as the authority on such matters, and as such it is there for everyone to see that a gun is a weapon.

 

 

You might want this link,

http://public.oed.com/contact-us/

In addition, in each of the dictionary definitions I've looked at, there is no reference to 'Weapon' as being a collective term for guns. It is a collective term for offensive & defensive implements.

What is a gun Ross, let me remind you

 

Definition of gun in English: noun

1A weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelledby explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise.

[RossEM]

Welsh, obviously I'm saying that the OED definition of Gun is misleading, as its terms are too wide and include implements such as humane killing tools which are patently not weapons. Under the OED definition, another example is a dummy launcher. You may disagree, but it undeniably incorporates "a metal tube from which missiles are propelled by explosive force." Thank you for the link, I will contact the OED and provide their response. They are indeed the authority, but of course no authority is infallible. The OED definition of Weapon does not include the word 'gun' - effectively the two OED definitions infer that a weapon is not a gun, but a gun is a weapon...which is contradictory, misleading and incorrect.

 

You carry on pasting the OED definition of Gun if you want, but it's not the relevant word in this discussion - the relevant word is Weapon, and the various dictionary definitions contain no reference to sporting use, only referring to offensive/defensive action. That's the salient point which proves that sporting guns are not weapons.

 

I get understand what you're saying, believe me, but I don't agree with it! I don't think anyone's rifles/shotguns/airguns should be termed weapons unless they are designed for, or used for, defensive or offensive action. I also don't agree that Weapon is a correct collective term for all guns - you have still not provided any precedent for usage of the word as a bonafide collective term. You can keep reminding me that a gun is a weapon (currently according to the OED), but that doesn't contradict my point - which is that 'Weapon' is not a collective term for guns.

[welsh1]

Oh Ross again ,you have shown that a gun is a weapon,how hard can it be?

 

And if you cannot understand that a humane killer that fires a bolt or projectile into the brain of an animal is not a weapon then you need to seriously sit down and have a talk with yourself.

 

Fact a gun is a weapon.

 

The whole argument is whether a gun no matter what sort should be called a weapon,the argument is not about collective terms although in this case guns are weapons.

 

I set out a long time ago in this thread my point that guns are weapons,it has gone on and on, and ironically you the person who has continued to argue the point that not all guns are weapons provided the conclusive proof from your own quote "authority" that they are.

 

A gun is a weapon,continue to argue if you want but everyone can see it is true.