Reloading Vectan A0 in 12 gauge

[wigeon jim]

Thing is one shot means nothing, you could have achieved the same result with two of the same shell, especially if the recipe wasn't an efficient one.

 

 

What I ment was two identical loads of 10 each, every one of the once fired cases were around 100fps faster, the reason is once fired cases are rougher on the inside which has a bit more resistance on the wad which causes a bit higher presure and velocity, by the time you get to a third or forth reload the case has stretched and weakened so presure will drop, Jim .

[rbrowning2]

Thing is one shot means nothing, you could have achieved the same result with two of the same shell, especially if the recipe wasn't an efficient one.

What I ment was two identical loads of 10 each, every one of the once fired cases were around 100fps faster, the reason is once fired cases are rougher on the inside which has a bit more resistance on the wad which causes a bit higher presure and velocity, by the time you get to a third or forth reload the case has stretched and weakened so presure will drop, Jim .

Interesting idea, but the powder/propellant will only generate a fixed amount of energy no more no less for a given dose so if the rougher case on the inside has a bit more resistance on the wad than a new case then some of the energy must be lost in overcoming this additional resistance and then less energy is available to propel the wad and shot down the barrel so one would assume this results in lower velocity. The relationship between velocity and pressure is I think not a mathematical model/formula otherwise their would be no need to measure both.

[hakapiken]

Once fired hull will allways give higher pressure Than new ones!!!! At same crimp dept and crimp length. Some more Than others.because of rougher inside. Load up and send in for proofing if you don't believe me. There is no snakeoil in here

 

Regards

J.A.

[rbrowning2]

Once fired hull will allways give higher pressure Than new ones!!!! At same crimp dept and crimp length. Some more Than others.because of rougher inside. Load up and send in for proofing if you don't believe me. There is no snakeoil in here

Regards

J.A.[/quote

 

But higher pressure does not always translate in to higher velocity as some of the pressure is used to overcome the internal effects like as you suggest rougher (higher resistance) inside case wall.

 

Think of it as a DC electrical circuit with more resistance then more volts (pressure) is required for the same current flow, so if only a fixed voltage (propellant dose) is available the current (velocity) will be less.

 

May be more than just the rough case is at work, so may just do as you suggest and get the proof house to prove this one way or another in the new year.

 

Always more to learn which is why reloading is so rewarding.

Edited December 19, 2015 by rbrowning2

[hakapiken]

Not much dayligth left here in northern Norway but I managed to shoot a few crows today

 

When I started reloading the Italians warned me about using theire data in once fired hulls because of pressure rise.....

Rbrowning: Let me know the results of the proofing. As you are saying. There is allways more to learn. Maybe I am totaly wrong.

 

Have a nice weekend

 

J.A.

[Continental Shooter]

Hi Folks,

 

I am back for the delight of few and the pain of many

 

Noticed few 'not exactly' correct things which I feel i need to straighten up:

 

Italians do not always use new hulls (trust me, I'm Italian)l, in fact, new hulls are for those who shoot little and test lots; shooters will always use once fired hulls from the clay pigeon grounds....simply because when you go through a certain amount of shells each ear it become too expensive.

 

Once fired hulls will be a tad shorter than normal (1-1.5 mm) so, the change in recipe isn't necessary as the only visible result is to leave the crimp open in the centre, drop a few pellets and you're sorted

 

Gualandi hulls do generate 40-60 bar more than Z2M, however they do tighten the pattern a lot more and tend to open properly as opposed to some batch of B&P which will open the sections irregularly and need to be pre-opened before loading.

 

The height of the closed shell is of paramount importance when reloading: a 1mm increase in depth when closing will guarantee between 80 and 120 bar more in your shell, same as dropping the column of pellets (by using a lower wad) will increase the pressure proportionally so would changing the wad rigidity. Also, a shell should be star crimped at 59mm or thereabouts depending on components used (i.e slower powder generally like it lower, faster burning powder would prefer it higher)

 

Even crimping with a Lee compared to classic factory looking star crimp, will reduce the pressure in the tune of 40-60 bar and so would be is you use 6 stars or 8 stars (20-40 bar)

 

using the same load but changing the wad from plastic to felt will indeed lower the pressure not because they can take more punch (which is, however, partially true when related to other components adjustments) but simply because they won't guarantee the same gas retention as a plastic one, hence why you would increase the powder by (a max of) 0.5 ctg.

 

Finally, as i mentioned in a few posts a while ago, factory powder is totally different (as produced on the specs of the reloader) to retail powder (produced for general powder)hence why loading factory loads with retail powder will fail proofing!!

 

I do agree with Cook.... I am still learning and testing...but some principles (along with quite a few phisycs rules) are stuck in my mind.

 

I am sure there will be lots of people whom will disagree with the above, but i would invite all newcomers to learn the powers which generates within each shells and the forces behind each load; again, quoting Cook, Reloading is a minefield (and you can step on a mine at any time)

 

cheers,

[rbrowning2]

 

Finally, as i mentioned in a few posts a while ago, factory powder is totally different (as produced on the specs of the reloader) to retail powder (produced for general powder)hence why loading factory loads with retail powder will fail proofing!!

 

,

Oh dear, I think you should re read that earlier post you refer to, as you never produced any evidence to support this miss leading statement. Or better still email Nobel Sport and Maxam and ask them that question, is the 500gm pot now sold across the EU and USA any different from the larger pot supplied to the cartridge manufactures, then publish the reply on here.

 

Show us the evidence Sherlock !!

 

P.s whilst you are doing that this may help you

http://www.cible-et-plateau.fr/tir/files/Table-VECTAN-chasse-A1.369.pdf

 

Notice how they package it in 500gm and 20kg and how both have the same CE classification number

if the 500gm was different from the 20kg then it would need a different classification number.

Also the load data would be different by your understanding for each and lots of us would have been loading to wrong data for many years and the data suppliers, FES in my case, would be giving us very bad data yet my loads have passed proof at Birmingham.

Edited December 22, 2015 by rbrowning2

[neutron619]

Chaps - I don't want to interrupt your discussion / argument / minor war (delete as appropriate) but it's been helpful to see this figure of 58mm or 59mm going back and forth a bit.

 

My other thread has the details of my experiments, but in short, I'm trying a deeper crimp (and the removal of a cork filler) on the load to which this post originally referred. In doing so, I've got a shell length of 59mm with the crimp at around 58mm from the base of the cartridge.

 

I therefore have a good feeling about testing this second batch of cartridges - I suspect they will be a lot less squib-like than the first attempts, which had much lighter crimps (I was worried about crimping too hard) and a longer overall length.

[rbrowning2]

Hello neutron619,

 

No war just posts with no scientific reasoning are worthless and am more than happy to be proven wrong if valid data is provided.

 

Now to cartridge length, the final height for star closure for the modern plastic shell is typically;

 

Cal 12ga 65mm hull finish at 53.40mm to 53.60mm

Cal 12ga 67mm hull finish at 55.80mm to 56.00mm

Cal 12ga 70mm hull finish at 57.80mm to 58.00mm

Cal 12ga 76mm hull finish at 64.00mm to 64.20mm

Cal 12ga 89mm hull finish at 74.80mm to 75.00mm

 

So one would expect a commercial cartridge to follow the above I assume it is defined by CIP somewhere but I found the above some time back printed it and then regret lost the bookmark on a pc upgrade.

 

But as a reloader you can do what you like.

 

Rb

[Continental Shooter]

I don-t need to prove anything, i know it is as i said,

 

The uselessness of certain statement made by certain so called reloader is blatant: can you see the wee man from the likes of fiocchi or NSI go to buy 50kg barrel to reload for the worldwide public?

between labour and retail price you wouldn't be able to afford a pack of cartridges....

 

Really, time spent throwing words at as screen just to pretend to be/know something could be employed far better in my view!

 

But as i said, i am back for the pain of many (cowboy) reloaders which have nothing to add to the science of reloading if not a bunch of grandpa recipes and a lot of dangerous empiric assumption....and the worst part: they're all very wiling to share this....

 

Sits proofed it for me and he said it fail test with a retail powder.... that all i need to prove i am right, no useless link for the public sold as wholesale catalogue bible

 

I, in the other hand, i can back everything up with the exact physics rules that rule the internal and external ballistic.... this was my job and is my study...for other is only a practical cheap way to source cartridges and kil few birds... there is a solid difference.

 

But i am here to speak to people who i know are knowledgeable, resourceful, adventurous, curious and, most importantly, careful, people that like to experiment with logic, knowledge and with safety Like sits, cook and some other...

 

the rest... can say whatever they feel like, i won't certainly disrepair if they don't agree with me coz they can't see past their noses....

 

Neutron, if you shoot a couple of test patterns per shells, with a chrony and some experience (starting from a proofed recipes) you can judge the effects of everything you change and adjust accordingly. Generally speaking an open pattern indicates too much pressure, a very tight one lower pressure.... compare the ones you-ve done before to the new ones and see what you get off it.

 

cheers,

[Guest cookoff013]

Tight patterns can be attributed to low speed. And low gas volumes behind the shot. It is major apartment when I did my subsonics. 32g and 28g. I have not patterned 21g,36g or 42g. I can't be bothered to test patterns.

 

I have mainly been concentrating on internal ballistics. That's where the magic is.

 

As ballistics is statistics and tons of test runs, that's it. That's all I have.

[hakapiken]

[quote name="Continental Shooter"

 

Neutron, if you shoot a couple of test patterns per shells, with a chrony and some experience (starting from a proofed recipes) you can judge the effects of everything you change and adjust accordingly. Generally speaking an open pattern indicates too much pressure, a very tight one lower pressure.... compare the ones you-ve done before to the new ones and see what you get off it.

 

cheers,

 

 

 

As I have written before. A chrony is a very usefull tool!!

 

Merry Xmas to all of You!

 

J.A.

[rbrowning2]

I don-t need to prove anything, i know it is as i said,

 

The uselessness of certain statement made by certain so called reloader is blatant: can you see the wee man from the likes of fiocchi or NSI go to buy 50kg barrel to reload for the worldwide public?

between labour and retail price you wouldn't be able to afford a pack of cartridges....

 

Really, time spent throwing words at as screen just to pretend to be/know something could be employed far better in my view!

 

,

With respect continental shooter your "I know it as I said" statement relating to the manufacture, classification and transport of explosive, which propellant is, is very much incorrect and misleading.

 

Yes the cartridge manufactures buy in big quantities but in many lots of small tubs e.g 20kg for the A1 ( as per my link above) or do you really think the industry is stupid enough to put 1000kg, 5000kg or more in a single lot/bag? Which would never be acceptable for classification or transport ADR.

 

You should employ your time better by listening to others and doing some research.

 

For example watch the following video http://www.pbclermont.be/video where they are making propellant and at about one minute forty seconds into the video you will see them load lots of tubs onto a lorry for delivery you will notice it is not one massive bag as you suggest.

 

But if you like you can post your video or proof that fiocchi and Nsi buy theirs in massive bags to get it cheap.

 

Personally I prefer to listen to somebody who knows what he is talking about.

Edited December 24, 2015 by rbrowning2

[rbrowning2]

I don-t need to prove anything, i know it is as

 

Sits proofed it for me and he said it fail test with a retail powder.... that all i need to prove i am right, no useless link for the public sold as wholesale catalogue bible :

 

Did he? But how?

 

At post 12 he did say his A0 load failed proof but he did not say it was retail powder and looks to have used the same lot of A0 all the time not as you suggest "retail 500gm" version failed proof and then same load with a "commercial 20kg" version passed proof.

 

So you have yet to prove that just because it is in a 500gm pot it is different from a 20kg pot.

Edited December 24, 2015 by rbrowning2

[Continental Shooter]

maybe you have a problem with my English and for that i apologise.

 

A quick question: do you know the difference between retail and commercial??

 

Otherwise there is not even a point on continuing wasting my time

 

For the last time

 

If you ever see a pic or have the luck, like i did, to step in a proper factory (i did go to B&P and Cheddite, but also Maxam in Spain) you will see that 'commercial' isn't 20, 50, 100 or even 1000kg. This is still considered retail.

 

When you got into the ton ... then you have commercially constructed powders.

 

If you go to S.Marino (it's a republic within Italian territory) there are gun shops which have got tens of barrels....still, they are retailers.

 

Every single guns shop in Italy which produces and sells its own shells buys 1000kg barrels per powder.

 

The easy math (feel free to dispute this too) is:

 

1000kg= 1,000,000 gr

say we use an average of 1.5 gr of powder per shell we end up with roughly 666666 shells

if, like many in UK, you shoot 1000 shells per year (to be conservative) it needs 667 shooters to smoke 1000 kg of powder.... and that's excluding clay shells

 

at 1000 Kg barrels, to send as many shells abroad as they do now, the likes of Fiocchi, B&P, etc. will have to raise their prices very much to recoup the costs.....

 

Can you see how absurd your assumptions are???

 

Ask George (proper Cartridges) how many kg of powder he buys....then think how many more clients Fiocchi, B&P, NSI, etc. have got in the world and you do the math....

 

i think at this point only the blinds cannot see who is right and whose assumptions are way off reality!!

 

and with that, i wish to stop this useless discussion, if you want to understand fine, if not, i am sure i can live with it.

 

Cheers,

[MAB1954]

Hello neutron619,

 

No war just posts with no scientific reasoning are worthless and am more than happy to be proven wrong if valid data is provided.

 

Now to cartridge length, the final height for star closure for the modern plastic shell is typically;

 

Cal 12ga 65mm hull finish at 53.40mm to 53.60mm

Cal 12ga 67mm hull finish at 55.80mm to 56.00mm

Cal 12ga 70mm hull finish at 57.80mm to 58.00mm

Cal 12ga 76mm hull finish at 64.00mm to 64.20mm

Cal 12ga 89mm hull finish at 74.80mm to 75.00mm

 

So one would expect a commercial cartridge to follow the above I assume it is defined by CIP somewhere but I found the above some time back printed it and then regret lost the bookmark on a pc upgrade.

 

But as a reloader you can do what you like.

 

Rb

 

Not sure about the above there seems to be very little tolerance, maybe correct under CIP Regs but I work to SAAMI Regs.

 

My understanding of SAAMI cartridge lengths for 12 gauge 2.75" case

 

Fold crimp 2.405" - 0.250" [61.09mm - 6.35mm].

Roll crimp 2.450" -0.250" [62.23mm - 6.35mm].

 

I work to imperial sizes because all my micrometers/verniers are imperial but have included metric sizes to help others. SAAMI data is on internet just google it.

 

Merry Christmas to all.

[rbrowning2]

maybe you have a problem with my English and for that i apologise.

 

A quick question: do you know the difference between retail and commercial??

 

Otherwise there is not even a point on continuing wasting my time

 

For the last time

 

If you ever see a pic or have the luck, like i did, to step in a proper factory (i did go to B&P and Cheddite, but also Maxam in Spain) you will see that 'commercial' isn't 20, 50, 100 or even 1000kg. This is still considered retail.

 

When you got into the ton ... then you have commercially constructed powders.

 

If you go to S.Marino (it's a republic within Italian territory) there are gun shops which have got tens of barrels....still, they are retailers.

 

Every single guns shop in Italy which produces and sells its own shells buys 1000kg barrels per powder.

 

The easy math (feel free to dispute this too) is:

 

1000kg= 1,000,000 gr

say we use an average of 1.5 gr of powder per shell we end up with roughly 666666 shells

if, like many in UK, you shoot 1000 shells per year (to be conservative) it needs 667 shooters to smoke 1000 kg of powder.... and that's excluding clay shells

 

at 1000 Kg barrels, to send as many shells abroad as they do now, the likes of Fiocchi, B&P, etc. will have to raise their prices very much to recoup the costs.....

 

Can you see how absurd your assumptions are???

 

Ask George (proper Cartridges) how many kg of powder he buys....then think how many more clients Fiocchi, B&P, NSI, etc. have got in the world and you do the math....

 

i think at this point only the blinds cannot see who is right and whose assumptions are way off reality!!

 

and with that, i wish to stop this useless discussion, if you want to understand fine, if not, i am sure i can live with it.

 

Cheers,

Continental shoot, I think we will never agree to agree, yes the cartridge manufacture will buy in bulk in many kgs, but it will never be in a 1000kg barrel as you claim.

 

Can you see how absurd your assumptions are???

 

yes George (proper Cartridges) as others will, will buy many kg of powder as cartridge manufacture so why don't you ask him (or you do it for him if he sends you the photo) to put a photo on hear of a single barrel of the 1000kg you claim, clearly labeled showing it as 1.3c 1000kg NEQ and of suitable physical size together with its UN packaging number, then if he/you can do that I will be on my knees grovelling to you as I apologise, hell I will even make a £100 donation to charity.

 

What you will learn when you speak to him is that depending on the type of powder and manufacture (EU) it will be packaged commercially in a 10kg, 15kg, 20kg, 25kg or 30kg drum or box it will never in a million years be in a single 1000kg barrel and for retail 500gm pots. Each will have a UN packaging number which can be verified on public domain databases for the purposes of ADR.

 

Your knowledge of powder manufacture, classification and transport is at best misleading and at worst dangerous.

 

Merry Christmas

 

P.s other uk cartridge manufactures are available so in the interests of fairness you can also ask them for the same photo.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2015 by rbrowning2

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Now gentlemen, a wager is offered and a donation to charity is the forfeit.

 

 

 

Let's see the evidence please.

[rbrowning2]

Now gentlemen, a wager is offered and a donation to charity is the forfeit.

 

 

 

Let's see the evidence please.

And who ever loses will make the donation.

[Guest cookoff013]

Hey y'all

 

25kg is the biggest lots I've seen, 55lbs or so.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Help for Heroes is a WONDERFUL Charity!

[hakapiken]

"Don't mention the war!"

[Continental Shooter]

Happy with the donation I'm not close to birmingham but would gladly bet the recipe for A1 showing on the NSI web site

 

20/70

M686

Gualandi super G

1.25 x 28

365 m/s

750 bar

 

Will be way off with the current A1.

 

but just for info and if you want to save few quids off the proofing: the one i am shooting over decoys (1.25 x 27) returned 842 bar and 404 m/s

 

cheers,