Out of range shooting

[Old farrier]

I take it thay are English no 4 would you say a no 4 has the energy at that sort of distance ? Dipper

As I said there a extreme cartridge for extreme birds and yes they will do the job !!!!

 

Amazing realy someone loads a case with square shot and a dispersing wad revolutionary increases hits on close flushed quarry no one argues

Another person develops a cartridge that delivers the goods at 100 meters and people can't get there head around it

Buy a few shoot them perfect your skill it's easy to set up 100 meter clays to practice on then go out and amaze your associates with 100 yard kills on pigeons or game your whole perspective on out of range shooting will change

But if your not prepared to put the time practice effort then change to specialist guns and cartridges and then more time more practice and even more effort into learning to shoot long and tall birds

 

You'll stay where you are

 

 

As said if you don't believe they do what it says on the box

Invest some money try them

[B25Modelman]

No thanks, a waste of time and money for me.

 

Strange old George, with all his superb shooting skills, has never won the B or E Opens.

Edited January 16, 2016 by B25Modelman

[Hamster]

Any chance of a picture of the insides of these 10 meter shells, failing that a picture of the pattern at 100 measured yards. My guess is at those ranges you'd be somewhat off aim on the pattern plate in any case. Hitting a live bird with a shot or two at 80 yards (or 100 meters) is one thing, being lucky enough to hit it in a vital area is another, not saying it can't be done but clearly with a scatter gun scattering pellets it must mean a high percentage will be hit and not killed, perhaps not even showing signs of being hit.

 

What exactly is the point of becoming a 90 yard specialist ? Why not 60 yards which is clearly going to lead to far less wounding and be testing too.

 

Finally, I really really would pay to watch a man break 50% of any orientation 100 yard clay with 14g of shot and a 410.

[Old farrier]

 

Any chance of a picture of the insides of these 10 meter shells, failing that a picture of the pattern at 100 measured yards. My guess is at those ranges you'd be somewhat off aim on the pattern plate in any case. Hitting a live bird with a shot or two at 80 yards (or 100 meters) is one thing, being lucky enough to hit it in a vital area is another, not saying it can't be done but clearly with a scatter gun scattering pellets it must mean a high percentage will be hit and not killed, perhaps not even showing signs of being hit.

 

What exactly is the point of becoming a 90 yard specialist ? Why not 60 yards which is clearly going to lead to far less wounding and be testing too

 

Did you read my post I said I use the 60 meter version !!!!!!

Which clearly answers your question

Second I said buy and try

Not ..........My guess is

Would you doubt a normal factory load would be off at 30/40 yards

Pointless me posting a pattern picture at 100 meters as you would

Guess my tape was out

I will for the benifit of the forum cut some up

 

Here you go

Give me a chance to put the others up

4more

3 more

2 more

1 more

There you go

All the best

Of

 

Oh and the powder appeared when I set it on fire to be a relatively slow burn

 

In the interest of science

Edited January 16, 2016 by Old farrier

[kent]

Any chance of a picture of the insides of these 10 meter shells, failing that a picture of the pattern at 100 measured yards. My guess is at those ranges you'd be somewhat off aim on the pattern plate in any case. Hitting a live bird with a shot or two at 80 yards (or 100 meters) is one thing, being lucky enough to hit it in a vital area is another, not saying it can't be done but clearly with a scatter gun scattering pellets it must mean a high percentage will be hit and not killed, perhaps not even showing signs of being hit.

 

What exactly is the point of becoming a 90 yard specialist ? Why not 60 yards which is clearly going to lead to far less wounding and be testing too.

 

Finally, I really really would pay to watch a man break 50% of any orientation 100 yard clay with 14g of shot and a 410.

You know the best of it was during a big bore shoot and the guns had backed off to separate the winner

[kent]

We must not judge all who shoot by our own competence.

 

Don't forget there are some exceptional shots out there who specialty is high birds shooting maybe 2 or 3 times a week. They are a joy to watch and to see them double gunning, killing 80 yard birds time after time with 2 or 3 birds dead in the air is amazing.

 

With the right guns and cartridges, coupled with the skill to do so 80 yards is quite achievable, just because some can't does not mean it can't be done.

With lead in larger sizes and an exceptional shot on form and guns set up to get the best out of those shells I except this one of them lives close buy yet pulled one drive on his own ground because the other guns could not. There are always extreme shooters with the right gear but few exist and many pretenders

If thier stats work out there is nothing a miss

[sitsinhedges]

 

Oh and the powder appeared when I set it on fire to be a relatively slow burn

 

In the interest of science

 

Looks like Vectan A0 but I don't think burning it in the open will tell you much

Edited January 16, 2016 by sitsinhedges

[Old farrier]

 

Looks like Vectan A0 but I don't think burning it in the open will tell you much

Proberably not sir but it went a lot slower than some and it was just for info and disposal of the powder

wouldn't like to guess at the powder

All the best

Of

[sitsinhedges]

Proberably not sir but it went a lot slower than some and it was just for info and disposal of the powder

wouldn't like to guess at the powder

All the best

Of

 

 

A0 is a slow powder, I use it for heavy 20 gauge loads. Bet it would suit those magnum 12 gauge loads too.

[Old farrier]

 

A0 is a slow powder, I use it for heavy 20 gauge loads. Bet it would suit those magnum 12 gauge loads too.

Thanks I'm sure it would

I use a fair bit of AO for 10 bore relodes gets it out there but not to punchy on a heavy load

All the best

Of

[Savhmr]

Looks like the plastic tube-wad is designed to keep the shot together for much farther than a conventional wad, hence perfectly feasible to have sufficient retained energy at 100m. However, I'd need convincing about the consistency of the pattern with such a design! May buy some just to test the pattern as that takes away the speculation

 

I'd still prefer to take birds closer in and reduce the possibilities of wounded critters though.

[fenboy]

 

Any chance of a picture of the insides of these 10 meter shells, failing that a picture of the pattern at 100 measured yards. My guess is at those ranges you'd be somewhat off aim on the pattern plate in any case. Hitting a live bird with a shot or two at 80 yards (or 100 meters) is one thing, being lucky enough to hit it in a vital area is another, not saying it can't be done but clearly with a scatter gun scattering pellets it must mean a high percentage will be hit and not killed, perhaps not even showing signs of being hit.

 

What exactly is the point of becoming a 90 yard specialist ? Why not 60 yards which is clearly going to lead to far less wounding and be testing too

 

Did you read my post I said I use the 60 meter version !!!!!!

Which clearly answers your question

Second I said buy and try

Not ..........My guess is

Would you doubt a normal factory load would be off at 30/40 yards

Pointless me posting a pattern picture at 100 meters as you would

Guess my tape was out

I will for the benifit of the forum cut some up

 

Here you go

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Give me a chance to put the others up

4more

3 more

2 more

1 more

There you go

All the best

Of

 

Oh and the powder appeared when I set it on fire to be a relatively slow burn

 

In the interest of science

Very interesting , never knew such a cartridge existed , my concern would be that Joe Average would buy such a cartridge in the miss belief it will turn him into a log range super star , at those ranges it will take more than just the cartridge to get a result it will also take a great deal of skill from the shooter in reading the target.

[Old farrier]

Hi sits

1.78 g of powder

Just cut another and weighed it I know it's best to get a average

Just for info

All the best

Of

Gualand wad

Plus 1

Top of wad

Shot cup

Or over shot cup

Just for info

😊😊😊

 

Just a thought anyone tried this method with steel shot and cups up this way just a thought 😋

Edited January 16, 2016 by Old farrier

[sitsinhedges]

Hi sits

1.78 g of powder

Just cut another and weighed it I know it's best to get a average

Just for info

All the best

Of

Gualand wad

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Plus 1

Top of wad

Shot cup

 

That's a fair old dose but then I use 1.3 grams of A0 for an ounce of shot in 20 gauge so I suppose it sounds about right for a magnum 12 gauge load. The shotcup is very interesting must be like a slug at close range

[Old farrier]

Hi sits

It is like a slug at 40 yards and proberably a bit further

If you want a closer look send your adress by pm and I post them up to you

Thanks for your interest

All the best

Of

[swingit]

Please show us some patterns at 100 yards.

[Old farrier]

Please show us some patterns at 100 yards.

Sorry pointless there's to many on here would say I did it at 40 so a waste of a cartridge

Buy some try them there only £250 a slab

Thanks for your interest

 

Sorry op bit of track here my appolgies

Back to your original post

Clean kills are down to your gun cartridge skill and confidence levels and if that lets me down iv a good dog

 

Please all of you move forward cartridge and aftermarket chokes have increased the effective killing range of a lot of guns a lot of game and pigeon shots have upped there skill levels to keep up

All the best

Of

[dipper]

Old farrier you could carry out your pattern tests at 100 metres with a few non believers .also test no4 for enegy .watched u tube ie dave Carrie on high pheasant shooting very tall birds a very fine shot. Uses heavy loads of big shot at the sort of range he shoots at how many birds do you think fly on with a few non leathel hits .walking round next day with dog I bet you would pick up quite a few birds And he's a top shot .So how would mr average do Dipper

[kent]

Looks like the plastic tube-wad is designed to keep the shot together for much farther than a conventional wad, hence perfectly feasible to have sufficient retained energy at 100m. However, I'd need convincing about the consistency of the pattern with such a design! May buy some just to test the pattern as that takes away the speculation

 

I'd still prefer to take birds closer in and reduce the possibilities of wounded critters though.

Agree let them come in

[Old farrier]

Old farrier you could carry out your pattern tests at 100 metres with a few non believers .also test no4 for enegy .watched u tube ie dave Carrie on high pheasant shooting very tall birds a very fine shot. Uses heavy loads of big shot at the sort of range he shoots at how many birds do you think fly on with a few non leathel hits .walking round next day with dog I bet you would pick up quite a few birds And he's a top shot .So how would mr average do Dipper

Why would I watch utube

Read the previous post I shoot the 60 meter version so if there on the limit for the heavy loads 50 yards there's enough in them to finish them off

There is no point being a back gun if you can't shoot your job is to finish off any wounded birds in my opinion you should have a gun and cartridge combination to do it

 

Plus how many wounded birds are left / lost on lower shoots with lesser shots the same number or more

I don't know how mr average would do but he could practice to get better

 

You could do the same test for the non believers as for the energy test what do you suggest

 

All the best

Of

[Hamster]

Looks like the plastic tube-wad is designed to keep the shot together for much farther than a conventional wad, hence perfectly feasible to have sufficient retained energy at 100m. However, I'd need convincing about the consistency of the pattern with such a design! May buy some just to test the pattern as that takes away the speculation

 

I'd still prefer to take birds closer in and reduce the possibilities of wounded critters though.

 

I agree it LOOKS like that but in practice it won't behave like that, shot and wad part company very quickly after exiting the barrel, this is a known phenomenon. The reason I asked to see a pic was to see if the shot itself had some sort of semi glue type powdery substance intended to fuse the main mass for say the first 30-40 yards, this is of course utter madness in reality on so many different levels that I refuse to even point out the flaws of such design because I respect the company too much.

 

Secondly the shot keeping together for longer does not mean greater retained energy in any case, again the reasons for this are known and understood.

 

Old Farrier, my request for the pic was not confrontational and I do accept your assertion of 60 yards being a doable range for shooter accuracy, retained energy and pattern density. Much beyond these sort of ranges the latter two fade to the extent greater wounding becomes inevitable, i.e, it is in fact accuracy which is the least of our worries.

 

Just in case anyone decides to do a true 100 yard pattern test with these or any other shells, might I suggest they aim a good 10" high on purpose .

[BrowningB525]

 

I agree it LOOKS like that but in practice it won't behave like that, shot and wad part company very quickly after exiting the barrel, this is a known phenomenon. The reason I asked to see a pic was to see if the shot itself had some sort of semi glue type powdery substance intended to fuse the main mass for say the first 30-40 yards, this is of course utter madness in reality on so many different levels that I refuse to even point out the flaws of such design because I respect the company too much.

 

Secondly the shot keeping together for longer does not mean greater retained energy in any case, again the reasons for this are known and understood.

 

Old Farrier, my request for the pic was not confrontational and I do accept your assertion of 60 yards being a doable range for shooter accuracy, retained energy and pattern density. Much beyond these sort of ranges the latter two fade to the extent greater wounding becomes inevitable, i.e, it is in fact accuracy which is the least of our worries.

 

Just in case anyone decides to do a true 100 yard pattern test with these or any other shells, might I suggest they aim a good 10" high on purpose .

 

The shot cup on these seems to be upside down. I wonder how/why it flips over at a certain range to disperse the shot.

[Old farrier]

 

The shot cup on these seems to be upside down. I wonder how/why it flips over at a certain range to disperse the shot.

But like a computer I guess don't know how that works but it does

I have yet to retrieve a shot cup so won't assume it flips it may break up or the top come off

All I know is they go the distance

All the best

Of

[Hamster]

 

The shot cup on these seems to be upside down. I wonder how/why it flips over at a certain range to disperse the shot.

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I have no doubt the shot makes it to a 100 meters and beyond but then so does shot fired with fibre wad shells. The point here is for that wad to travel WITH the shot pack for any length of time it would have to fly with them at the same speed; that it cannot do without reducing their velocity rather drastically !

 

This is a simple matter of aerodynamics V launch speed, the very reason that wads very quickly part ways with shot is their wildly different mass and resistance to wind, in high speed filming it has been shown very clearly that shot and wad separate quickly and that shot then begins to disperse fairly rapidly. To prevent this happening you can buffer (temporarily glue) the shot or make it travel with the wad, the latter cannot help but lead to a reduction of the speed of pellets (even if it does manage to hold the pattern for longer) reducing the speed of pellets intended to be lethal at 100 yards is not a clever thing to do.

 

I again will reiterate I don't disbelieve that hitting and downing game at 80 yards is possible with big shot and big weight loads, what I maintain is that by definition and due to the nature of shotguns, doing this routinely will lead to too many pricked birds, hence my question: what exactly is the point of becoming a 90 yard specialist ? It is provably inefficient and arguably immoral.

[dipper]

Why would I watch utube

Read the previous post I shoot the 60 meter version so if there on the limit for the heavy loads 50 yards there's enough in them to finish them off

There is no point being a back gun if you can't shoot your job is to finish off any wounded birds in my opinion you should have a gun and cartridge combination to do it

Plus how many wounded birds are left / lost on lower shoots with lesser shots the same number or more

I don't know how mr average would do but he could practice to get better

You could do the same test for the non believers as for the energy test what do you suggest

All the best

Of

Watched u tube meaning I watched u tube never said you watched it . No 4 has run out of steam at 80 yards unless a pellet enters the eye.Your first post was about 100 meter shooting not 60 . One would have to be a very gifted person to master shooting at that sort of range.Long range shooting is a attractive proposition for a lot of people it's nothing new .in muzzle loading days we had wire cartridges 3 types for different ranges .buffered shot that gives about extra 20 yards in the prewar years someone came. Up with a alloy wad that held the shot together at long range but all this encourages sky busting .A shot gun at one time was referred to as a sporting gun .Dipper.