colin lad Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Followed advice and got on the range today for a solid 2 hours. It paid off. I'm much more comfortable with my rifle and scope. Zeroed at 50 metres, perfect! For a 25 metre shot, the end of the thick part of the upper reticle corresponds to the point of impact. The same could be said the lower reticle at 75 metres. A convenient, practical solution unless I've missed something!?Will work if scope is a set zoom/mag but if it's changeable then it will be different on different mags for instance a target at 75 yards the mill dots could be say 4" on 12 mag but screw mag down to 4 or 5 and the could 7"Figures are just for example not actual before someone says something Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Will work if scope is a set zoom/mag but if it's changeable then it will be different on different mags for instance a target at 75 yards the mill dots could be say 4" on 12 mag but screw mag down to 4 or 5 and the could 7" Figures are just for example not actual before someone says something Colin Unless a First focal plane. But its unlikely to be ! Houseplant, what sort of groups did you get at 75yards and did your try 100yards? ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valley boy Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 the longest shot i ever done on a rabbit was 173 paces thats with a cz 452 22lr shoot them regular over 100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Unless a First focal plane. But its unlikely to be ! Houseplant, what sort of groups did you get at 75yards and did your try 100yards? ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 You see I very much differ in my approach. No way could I remember mag changes and different Mil dots used as aim.marks on those differing settings What I can remember is the basic trajectory and wind paths. At shower ranges target leads but it's all fairly automatic with the 22. With larger rifles and more distant ranges I am very much a straight down the line moa man for trajectory and wind values and use a cheat sheet taped to the butt or in the butt bag I don't think learning some hashes or dots on a scope reticule really fosters the metal understanding. Where as moa does 1/2 wind 1/4 wind etc back from 10 mph soon goes in my head Still it's not the best for 22 as 10 yards more or another 2 mph fv matters often it matters a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 You see I very much differ in my approach. No way could I remember mag changes and different Mil dots used as aim.marks on those differing settings What I can remember is the basic trajectory and wind paths. At shower ranges target leads but it's all fairly automatic with the 22. With larger rifles and more distant ranges I am very much a straight down the line moa man for trajectory and wind values and use a cheat sheet taped to the butt or in the butt bag I don't think learning some hashes or dots on a scope reticule really fosters the metal understanding. Where as moa does 1/2 wind 1/4 wind etc back from 10 mph soon goes in my head Still it's not the best for 22 as 10 yards more or another 2 mph fv matters often it matters a lot me neither Kent i couldn't remember them that's why i have them on a simple chart stuck on my stock like i said earlier , it would also not really be my ideal method for the majority of my shooting i would just reach for a different gun, at the end of the day in the real world long range vermin shooting with the lr is a lot of guess work, as you have mentioned wind no matter what chart you have you can't know what drift your going to get ie a 10mph side wind is x inch drift at 100 yards but that's only if you have a steady 10 mph side wind but if it's gusty that will all be out the window colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseplant Posted February 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Unless a First focal plane. But its unlikely to be ! Houseplant, what sort of groups did you get at 75yards and did your try 100yards? ATB Matt consistent 2.5 inch grouping which i was pretty pleased with. didn't try any longer distances and i forgot to say, cz452 .22LR, 3 - 9 X 40 mm scope, cci subsonic 40 g. Edited February 22, 2016 by Houseplant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 me neither Kent i couldn't remember them that's why i have them on a simple chart stuck on my stock like i said earlier , it would also not really be my ideal method for the majority of my shooting i would just reach for a different gun, at the end of the day in the real world long range vermin shooting with the lr is a lot of guess work, as you have mentioned wind no matter what chart you have you can't know what drift your going to get ie a 10mph side wind is x inch drift at 100 yards but that's only if you have a steady 10 mph side wind but if it's gusty that will all be out the window colin Wind is like waves you can shoot in the lull or the peak etc. Wind reading is the main skill in all extended range rifle shooting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Good idea. Field test your scope-rifle-ammo combo under real world conditions, too. Check if your point of impact shifts when shooting off bipod/sticks/sitting etc. Place targets out to beyond your expected range, plot the drops and your "real-world group size" to determine your ethical max range (under the conditions pertaining at the time, of course.) Use your data to generate a tested drop chart, either graphical or tabular. Stick it to your stock or scope. I usually use tabular and include a column for full value 10mph wind. Below is a graphical drop chart for my old set up. Drop is in inches; I use mil or MOA (depending on scope) for the sticker on the gun. Thanks for the advice very helpful. Do you hold over the target for monger ranges or adjust your scope? I am not sure i understand this bit from Kent I don't think learning some hashes or dots on a scope reticule really fosters the metal understanding. Where as moa does 1/2 wind 1/4 wind etc back from 10 mph soon goes in my head Still it's not the best for 22 as 10 yards more or another 2 mph fv matters often it matters a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Wind is like waves you can shoot in the lull or the peak etc. Wind reading is the main skill in all extended range rifle shooting yes but if you have sat and watched wind on the water or over a field of corn you may have a lull where you are but there may be a gust 50-60 yards on so bullet travelling through last 40-50 yards of cross wind so it's still guess work colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Thanks for the advice very helpful. Do you hold over the target for monger ranges or adjust your scope? I am not sure i understand this bit from Kent I don't think learning some hashes or dots on a scope reticule really fosters the metal understanding. Where as moa does 1/2 wind 1/4 wind etc back from 10 mph soon goes in my head Still it's not the best for 22 as 10 yards more or another 2 mph fv matters often it matters a lot On 22 I hold over or off for everything as required. With biggest rifles I dial in all but target lead I have dialed 22 in the past its not that great too much messing on quarry You see rabbit takes three hops and it could be another moa and I don't think that is affordable you have to see it and get on with it while the goings good - if it is that's down to the shooter to decide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) yes but if you have sat and watched wind on the water or over a field of corn you may have a lull where you are but there may be a gust 50-60 yards on so bullet travelling through last 40-50 yards of cross wind so it's still guess work colin Educated guess work, like a wave the trough is right behind the peak or crest if you like And like waves there are sequences like every 4 th wave is a big one etc Wind is far more than a windicator ( which is not something I should even consider with 22) up slope. Down slope etc One field I shoot over regular on a normal prevailing westerly somehow develops a reverce wind around 380 yards out I can't read it contour wise as to why just know it is likely and needs watching Ok this is beyond 22 but not above other stuff so it's relivent to point out there is a lot of practice and a lot of learning intermixed with that luck or guessing More an educated guess the more education the better Edited February 22, 2016 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Or the other option learn better field craft and stalk in closer, Like you say it's all education and the more we do the better at it we get, It's still enjoyable all the same, And lets not rule out time spent on these sites for all the willy waving rubbish you come across there is also plenty to learn, I for one would never of contemplated reloading had it not been for some or here or dreamed of building my own NV units Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Colin stalking closer is obviously the way to go but not the thread subject. There are needs to shoot further on occasions We either except this and our personal limits or we work on improving. I started the improving bit 35 years ago and a m still on that path I don't think willy waving should come into it and if your not into taking longer shots and learning how just don't do it Personally I don't do night vision I haven't a pressing need for it. Now if I was being paid I should get the best set up possible. I don't really see the fun in it personally If my bunny shooting was all about getting close I should go sub 12ft lb air power Though as it is its about 50/ 50 pest control on my ground and pot filling perhaps a side order of dogtraining gear and experience Personally speaking I don't take s long shot that could be a short one with a little effort with the 22 at least. It's just not possible to climb over a 5 ft dry stone wall and cross through 40 yards of mud and rushes without those big ears catching you at it though. So where need exists If I know it's going to be a long shot day though it's going to be the 22 hornet I pick up though not the 22 rimfire Otherwise it's akin to going out to flight geese with a fourten ( challenging but a massive handicap) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Think you read my post wrong I was simply saying these sites are all part of the learning and if you sift through some of the posts there is some very good info to be had Like you say don want to take this thread off course Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Field test your scope-rifle-ammo combo under real world conditions, Place targets out to beyond your expected range, plot the drops and your "real-world group size" to determine your ethical max range (under the conditions pertaining at the time, of course.) Use your data to generate a tested drop chart, Drop is in inches; <script pagespeed_no_defer="">//=d.offsetWidth&&0>=d.offsetHeight)a=!1;else{c=d.getBoundingClientRect();var f=document.body;a=c.top+("pageYOffset"in window?window.pageYOffset:(document.documentElement||f.parentNode||f).scrollTop);c=c.left+("pageXOffset"in window?window.pageXOffset:(document.documentElement||f.parentNode||f).scrollLeft);f=a.toString()+","+c;b.b.hasOwnProperty(f)?a=!1:(b.b[f]=!0,a=a<=b.e.height&&c<=b.e.width)}a&&(b.a.push(e),b.d[e]=!0)};p.prototype.checkImageForCriticality=function(b){b.getBoundingClientRect&&q(this,b)};h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.checkImageForCriticality",function(b){n.checkImageForCriticality(b)});h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.checkCriticalImages",function(){r(n)});var r=function(b){b.b={};for(var d=["IMG","INPUT"],a=[],c=0;c=a.length+e.length&&(a+=e)}b.g&&(e="&rd="+encodeURIComponent(JSON.stringify(s())),131072>=a.length+e.length&&(a+=e),d=!0);t=a;if(d){c=b.f;b=b.h;var f;if(window.XMLHttpRequest)f=new XMLHttpRequest;else if(window.ActiveXObject)try{f=new ActiveXObject("Msxml2.XMLHTTP")}catch(k){try{f=new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP")}catch(u){}}f&&(f.open("POST",c+(-1==c.indexOf("?")?"?":"&")+"url="+encodeURIComponent(b)),f.setRequestHeader("Content-Type","application/x-www-form-urlencoded"),f.send(a))}}},s=function(){var b={},d=document.getElementsByTagName("IMG");if(0==d.length)return{};var a=d[0];if(!("naturalWidth"in a&&"naturalHeight"in a))return{};for(var c=0;a=d[c];++c){var e=a.getAttribute("pagespeed_url_hash");e&&(!(e in b)&&0=b[e].k&&a.height>=b[e].j)&&(b[e]={rw:a.width,rh:a.height,ow:a.naturalWidth,oh:a.naturalHeight})}return b},t="";h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.getBeaconData",function(){return t});h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.Run",function(b,d,a,c,e,f){var k=new p(b,d,a,e,f);n=k;c&&m(function(){window.setTimeout(function(){r(k)},0)})});})();pagespeed.CriticalImages.Run('/mod_pagespeed_beacon','http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?s=8c0f6bd8ac4ec4c673a38a260d6b6933&app=forums&module=ajax§ion=topics&do=quote&t=331006&p=3008740&md5check=62d3855b41cb20aca154fcd4dc6a9e54&isRte=1,B6nXayd9mu,true,false,VBATsvNRdRY');//]]></script> &&0 This chart is pretty spot on. I used to shoot target on a 15 yard range and we found that when we went to a 25 yard range that it was about 7 clicks up difference and at 50 yards the zero was back on and at one hundred it was 20 clicks up. So my target range experience seems to match the chart pretty much the same.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangbangman Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 I'm not surprised, though it will vary depending on scope height above bore axis and, to a lesser extent, barrel length/twist/actual bore diameter. Of course, if you zero at 100 you'll get quite a different chart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Zeroed at 50 yards most subs will be 6 - 8 low. Pressure and ammo type can make a difference but your drop seems a bit much The one thing you will get is odd shots going a good bit lower in a batch of bullets. The better the quality the less it happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangbangman Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 It may seem like more drop compared to your experience but these are actual measured drops from multi-shot groups using my rifle, in one session, not extrapolated or generated by ballistic calculator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 It may seem like more drop compared to your experience but these are actual measured drops from multi-shot groups using my rifle, in one session, not extrapolated or generated by ballistic calculator. Of course there are factors but I can't help but wonder why your getting this You can loose about an inch at sea level at times of low pressure but are there any contours that could be pushing things down? Have you tried indoors at 100? Not doubting your getting it just wondering why? Are those groups good? The last lot of eley subs I used were not slow by any means and also performed ok grouping ok out to 130 if I remember correctly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Lads let's get one thing straight you can field test all you want and have as much experience as you like but there will only ever be one person on this thread who is right no matter what you have done Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazzab Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) I was chap that went with Colin. Was a fascinating morning. Colin has always said how versatile the LR is. That morning def proved him right, not that I doubted him. Hehe. I learnt a huge amount about it and has enabled me to move forward leaps. I'll stick a proven method that has been tested by us. I agree "guess" work is part of it but testing etc can remove that. Hahaha totally agree Colin.... Then again I'm prob wrong!!! Edited February 25, 2016 by bazzab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Well just saying it's lower than it should be from a 50 yard zero. Could be all manner of things but I should want to know why I was loosing a good 2 moa maybe more than I should over those next 50 yards Think it's not all about getting out to 100 it's got to be lower at all ranges after zero with a more pronounced trajectory under the line of sight at 60, 70,80 etc Whatever there is a reason someplace in the kit ammo or procedure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangbangman Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Groups were 5 shot and I fired two. Each group had one flyer (one went high and the other low) - vertical dispersion of the remaining four shots in each group was less than an inch (I have measured the actual value but can't remember what it was without looking it up in my log.) There was no difference in elevation between the two groups. Land was flat, crosswind 5-10mph. I hadn't sorted/screened this batch of ammo by rim thickness, which I've tried in the past as a means to reduce fliers (since it head spaces off the rim.) I chrono'd this ammo at an average of 961fps, which is slower than Eley advertise. By comparison, Eley Club chrono'd at 1050fps and I subsequently started hunting with this instead. I was happy with the performance of the Eley subs but finished the batch and had plenty of Club to use. The Quad now wears its 17HMR barrel and .22LR duties are with a tricked-up 10-22 which prefers Win subs. If I start using the 10/22 for comps again, I'll probably go back to the Quad/Eley combo and would retest a new batch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 It's a quad? I think I know were the issue might be seen it before barrel alignment issue I was thinking mounts or very slow ammo batch but it won't be the ammo at over 900 The slowest heaviest subs will usually keep to 8" from a 50 yards zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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