leadbreakfast Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Can anybody shed me some light on this old thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 What old thing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Yes interesting photos think it might be a ghost gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 There you go was struggling to put pics up. So then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisdom Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Don't know anything about it unfortunately other than its very nice I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 You should be able to date from the proof marks code as here http://www.hallowellco.com/british_proof%20marks%20-%20syntax%20by%20date.htm Be aware that as far as I can see - it has never been nitro proofed. It is also usual to see the working load (e.g 1 1/8 oz) and chamber length (typically 2 1/2"). I beieve these came in to use in 1896 Therefore - from the photos - as far as I can tell - it looks like the marks for Birmingham pre 1896. As to maker, I have no idea, but from the engraving etc, I suggest probably a mid priced gun in its youth - and the use of Scott spindle type top lever and Purdey style bolts suggests not before late 1870s (they came in 1865 and 1863 respectively, but were only more widely used rather after the patents expired). My guesswork - not gospel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenlivet Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 You should be able to date from the proof marks code as here http://www.hallowellco.com/british_proof%20marks%20-%20syntax%20by%20date.htm Be aware that as far as I can see - it has never been nitro proofed. It is also usual to see the working load (e.g 1 1/8 oz) and chamber length (typically 2 1/2"). I beieve these came in to use in 1896 Therefore - from the photos - as far as I can tell - it looks like the marks for Birmingham pre 1896. As to maker, I have no idea, but from the engraving etc, I suggest probably a mid priced gun in its youth - and the use of Scott spindle type top lever and Purdey style bolts suggests not before late 1870s (they came in 1865 and 1863 respectively, but were only more widely used rather after the patents expired). My guesswork - not gospel! Great info, thanks. I've just dated my AB Williams from 1904 - 1925 and my Midland from 1925-1954. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Great info, thanks. I've just dated my AB Williams from 1904 - 1925 and my Midland from 1925-1954. PM sent re date codes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenlivet Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) PM sent re date codes Fantastic, thanks 😀 Edited February 20, 2016 by Glenlivet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 You should be able to date from the proof marks code as here http://www.hallowellco.com/british_proof%20marks%20-%20syntax%20by%20date.htm Be aware that as far as I can see - it has never been nitro proofed. It is also usual to see the working load (e.g 1 1/8 oz) and chamber length (typically 2 1/2"). I beieve these came in to use in 1896 Therefore - from the photos - as far as I can tell - it looks like the marks for Birmingham pre 1896. As to maker, I have no idea, but from the engraving etc, I suggest probably a mid priced gun in its youth - and the use of Scott spindle type top lever and Purdey style bolts suggests not before late 1870s (they came in 1865 and 1863 respectively, but were only more widely used rather after the patents expired). My guesswork - not gospel! Yea I know it's not nitro, so it's prob 1870s then Not really bothered about shooting it just like these old ones with history. Cheers bud👍🏻 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Lead breakfast Proof marks suggest your gun was built between 1887 - 1896. The number 12 is the bore size has you will know the crossed scepters with a crown above the letter V is the viewer mark .The crossed septers with the crown and letters b,c.p are the proof marks , the BP under the crown is for black powder . The word choke on each barrel is mostly represents a live pigeon gun, the 12C with in the diamond is for a chanber of 2.3/4 inches or more. The gun is a bar lock with floating strikers and Greener type hammers and well made with a Dolls head rib extension . Although no name on the locks I would say it was retailed by a ironmonger or such and bought in complete from the Birmingham gun trade quite common at that period . If you in the future you wish to use it with black powder have it checked over by a good gunsmith and should take a ordinary 12 bore load of 2.3/4 drm of medium grain black powder to 1.1/8 oz of shot . You have a nice looking gun there to use it will be a pleasure Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Always thought that 12 over a "C" was simply-12 nominal gauge & C means choked and therefore not suitable for ball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Always thought that 12 over a "C" was simply-12 nominal gauge & C means choked and therefore not suitable for ball? Early guns with a choke barrel were stamped Not For Ball Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Early guns with a choke barrel were stamped Not For Ball Feltwad That stacks up because I had a Joseph Lang dated (by Atkin, Grant & Lang) to 1882 - and that was stamped 'Not for Ball' on the left barrel only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 AFAIK - "Not for Ball" was used by the Brum proof house till 1887-this was then changed to the 12 over the C inside a Diamond to denote the same warning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 AFAIK - "Not for Ball" was used by the Brum proof house till 1887-this was then changed to the 12 over the C inside a Diamond to denote the same warning? My apology you were right and I was wrong the 12 over c in the diamond does represent choke My research shows several diamonds stamps for proof and I had looked at the wrong one .No offence I hope Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 No apologies needed whatsoever Sir, proof marks are a Minefield at the best of times but throwing in BP specifics as well causes further confusion. I would suggest getting the chambers measured if the gun is to be used as they are most likely 65/67mm or 2 1/2" in old money. If the OP wants to use it he needs to prepare himself for a shock-Just Cartridges hold the last stock of the Gamebore? BP shells and I'm pretty sure they are over £25/box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 Loading your own black powder cartidges cuts the cost considerable Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted February 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 I'm not bothered about shooting it, I might turn it into a wall hanger to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 I'm not bothered about shooting it, I might turn it into a wall hanger to be honest. Please, no! If it's safely and legally shootable keep it that way, deactivation's a very "one way" process. I've a couple of wall hangers but both were deactivated due to their having passed the end of their useful shooting lives. Let's not lose more antique guns than we have to, gun amnesties please take note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 I'm not bothered about shooting it, I might turn it into a wall hanger to be honest. A gun like what you have is too good to be deactivated just for a wall hanger you have a piece of Victorian Gun history but it is up too you Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenlivet Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 Rather than deactivate why not sell it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted February 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 Just like the look of it and will see it more on the wall than when I go in the cabinet to get a different gun out. Like I've said not bothered about shooting it so what's to loose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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