disco or stick with pickup

[rodp]

All cars get problems but you picked on the wrong machines here to try and pull this stunt on , and even if we start with things way back in history with toyotas 2L and 2 LTs in 22 and 2.4 litre, the reliability was above average and even though some hard worked examples cracked cylinder heads it was still a low %.

These small diesels were not the most powerfull out there but even when none turbo they soldiered on towing trailers and generaly out performing the venerable and ubiquitous 2286cc petrol derived diesel lumps in the series LRs and its 2.5 stable mate engine.

Axles on the toyotas are built to take abuse big pinion bearings stronger half shafts and front hubs. Where as the LR axles were still basicaly the old rover 14 car axle from the 30s which rover used in the Folowing P3 and auntie rover P4s of the 50s and 60s, this car axle with a few minor mods like a few more splines on the drive shaft and a bearing change or two saw service for the entire history of these parts bin antique LRs .

And as for toyotas bigger H prefix 6 cylinder diesels the reliability is world renown and the first choice of people who really need a truck to work, to stay alive, not just get through that wet patch in the gate hole when checking the cows.

No The TLCs are right up there and with only the patrols as any kind of competition for out and out grunt and inbuilt strength.

Not a mitsubushi fan myself but they are landrover beaters for sure.

Why would I pull a stunt ? As said, it puzzles me. I read about all these land rovers breaking down all over the place and the japs soldiering on for light years, but my personal experience just doesn't see that. We do quite a lot of work for the fairgrounds, even they don't use Toyota's now ..... Why ?

[rodp]

When I bought mine it had just gone through the MOT with no advisories and I knew it had a leaking sunroof. Its history of MOT's was very few advisories as well. The only thing it didn't have was rust which is the real killer of them. If there is a known fault with them though I had it, I reckon it had some neglect although a lot of the stuff that went wrong are known faults and poor build quality. The car had only done 80k when it threw the oil pump bolt. I don't know any owner of them that doesn't spend money but I think the tinkering is 50% the attraction for most owners. Am sure theres plenty of happy owners and I even looked at a disco 3 but there known faults are even worse.

The one I've just bought (a few weeks ago, took six months to find it) has done 163,000 miles app so an unknown quantity (anything over 50 / 60k is. So, as I'm too busy at work I took it in to a local independent specialist and had ALL belts and tensioners changed, water pump and alternator changed, temperature sender changed. All wheels off and bearings, discs, calipers, pads checked and also ALL levels checked and anti freeze changed.

I just think it's something any 20 year old motor should need as a bare minimum. Come spring I'll have ALL oils and fluids changed and aircon regassed (works great, but can't hurt it)

 

Perhaps this is why they've always been so reliable to me, I never trust the previous owners word for it.

[kent]

This sort of thing really puzzles me I bought my first Land Rover (80") when I was 17, I'm coming 63 now and still use LR. I've tried others and probably the worst was a Toyota 3.0td, that almost got me stuck in wales with a trailer on, I just gave up with the heap and pressed on then scrapped the thing. I can't honestly remember ever being stranded in a LR product through break down. An acquaintance has a Pajero and that's cost him a fortune, and still got problems so he's driving it until it stops. Another mate always buys a new Land Cruiser every 3 years, and every one has been trouble, brakes, air bags, steering, lights etc. And I do mean every one. However he likes Toyota so keeps buying them and returning for repair.

I run a Disco, son runs a Disco, Niece runs a Disco, brother runs a Range Rover and we have a series as a family run about. None are any trouble at all.

 

Reference the propshaft, a defender WILL tow a 44t artic on the flat, as will a Disco or RR, but that one broke 150 yards into a field while empty ??

 

What can I say your experiences are not the norm

Yes broken prop

My mates got a disco with air suspension it was doing the boogaloo on my yard a while back we both watched it from the kitchen window

Called in at the local hydronic place a while back. There was a stack of range rovers in awaiting sorting. The engineer went all quiet with a rye smile when I passed comment

Don't know how much my pall has spent but we have a scooby here with over 180 k on it. Other than eating suspension bushes and one lamda sensor nothing has needed changing except service parts. Same clutch even - that's Japanese reliability!

[rodp]

What can I say your experiences are not the norm

Yes broken prop

My mates got a disco with air suspension it was doing the boogaloo on my yard a while back we both watched it from the kitchen window

Called in at the local hydronic place a while back. There was a stack of range rovers in awaiting sorting. The engineer went all quiet with a rye smile when I passed comment

Don't know how much my pall has spent but we have a scooby here with over 180 k on it. Other than eating suspension bushes and one lamda sensor nothing has needed changing except service parts. Same clutch even - that's Japanese reliability!

:lol:

[TONY R]

Why would I pull a stunt ? As said, it puzzles me. I read about all these land rovers breaking down all over the place and the japs soldiering on for light years, but my personal experience just doesn't see that. We do quite a lot of work for the fairgrounds, even they don't use Toyota's now ..... Why ?

No idea about your fairground crowd, could be something as simple as dealership location or more probable Personal preference, but i can assure you this it has nothing to do with strength reliability or long service life.

LRs are mechano sets bolt together on an average chassis, the steel shortage after the war gave them the alite body pannels which quite by mistake as they used serplus aircraft materials, gave the LRs a youth full external apperance that often hid the horors which lurked hiden.

Couple this with the structural rear bulkhead which staunchly refuses to alow any sensible driving possition for any normal sized european person regardless of sex, leaks drafts flexible door structures with automatic opening .

Man the list is endless really and you nall ready know this without me telling you why fight it, we all had them there was nothing else remember, but when the Daihatsu F20 ( Toyota Blizard)with the Toyota 12 R push rod petrol and F50 2.5 diesel showed up in the mid 1970s LR saw what a true workhorse should be like.

Japs are steel they do rot but dispite popular rumour so do landrovers.

Main thing thats kept these criples alive so long is aftermarket spares outlets clever marketing and formal and to a greater extent informal (play day poser ) competition .

They gained some brand loyal fans who quite fraankly would buy anything with an LR badge on it and indeed do look at the evoque for an example. Japs have it ive seen it all with LRs from series 1 80 inch to Range rovers, best engines are the old 2286 cc diesels and tdi 200s Best vehicles are series 1s and classic four door range rovers with the 200tdi instaled 1991-2 ish. The P38 was a down turn what with metro cab styling and suspension ecus what a desaster and it was down hill from there rapidly.

Edited February 23, 2016 by TONY R

[kent]

Landrover did simple very well

Could fix them with bailer twine. Bit of wire.pop rivet gun and a stick welder once over

Lost the plot later and lost the market. Electric board just turned up in a hylux on my yard to drive into moorland fields at night

Now if they were living on some middle class estate and working in town they might likely buy them thier discos

[bigman]

Had my d1 a few years now it's got nearly 190,000 on the clock 96 tdi excluding some welding for rusty rear arches it's solid and pulls hard , if it died tomorrow I'd buy another one

[TONY R]

highly improbable but thought provoking Scenario for everyone!!!! simpson desert Australia Toyota Amazon vx 4.2 2001 150 000 miles well serrviced and a 2001 Disco TD5 again with 150 000 miles again properly serviced .

You got limited water no suport whatsoever its do it get there or die you got your child with you, which set of keys are you picking up off the desk. nuff said.

Edited February 23, 2016 by TONY R

[sishyplops]

I have it said if you want to go into the outback take a land rover if you want to come back take a land cruiser, I guess with all that's been said and I really appreciate your comments, that a landrover would be a hobby for me anyway, my ranger which is of course a Mazda has been fantastic, superbly reliable and has never failed to start first time, pulls our caravan with ease and I would like to think it will go pretty much anywhere, I do fancy (not require) a 4x4 that is not a pickup 7 seats would be good, a mate has a landcruiser 4.2 2004 but they fetch silly money, so for the time Bing I'll stick with the ranger and hope my mate sells me his cruiser cheap (some chance )

[rodp]

No idea about your fairground crowd, could be something as simple as dealership location or more probable Personal preference, but i can assure you this it has nothing to do with strength reliability or long service life.

LRs are mechano sets bolt together on an average chassis, the steel shortage after the war gave them the alite body pannels which quite by mistake as they used serplus aircraft materials, gave the LRs a youth full external apperance that often hid the horors which lurked hiden.

Couple this with the structural rear bulkhead which staunchly refuses to alow any sensible driving possition for any normal sized european person regardless of sex, leaks drafts flexible door structures with automatic opening .

Man the list is endless really and you nall ready know this without me telling you why fight it, we all had them there was nothing else remember, but when the Daihatsu F20 ( Toyota Blizard)with the Toyota 12 R push rod petrol and F50 2.5 diesel showed up in the mid 1970s LR saw what a true workhorse should be like.

Japs are steel they do rot but dispite popular rumour so do landrovers.

Main thing thats kept these criples alive so long is aftermarket spares outlets clever marketing and formal and to a greater extent informal (play day poser ) competition .

They gained some brand loyal fans who quite fraankly would buy anything with an LR badge on it and indeed do look at the evoque for an example. Japs have it ive seen it all with LRs from series 1 80 inch to Range rovers, best engines are the old 2286 cc diesels and tdi 200s Best vehicles are series 1s and classic four door range rovers with the 200tdi instaled 1991-2 ish. The P38 was a down turn what with metro cab styling and suspension ecus what a desaster and it was down hill from there rapidly.

I have to admit you've stated some very good facts there Enough in fact for me to realise you don't really know what you're talking about do you ? :lol:

[Cosd]

No idea about your fairground crowd, could be something as simple as dealership location or more probable Personal preference, but i can assure you this it has nothing to do with strength reliability or long service life.

LRs are mechano sets bolt together on an average chassis, the steel shortage after the war gave them the alite body pannels which quite by mistake as they used serplus aircraft materials, gave the LRs a youth full external apperance that often hid the horors which lurked hiden.

Couple this with the structural rear bulkhead which staunchly refuses to alow any sensible driving possition for any normal sized european person regardless of sex, leaks drafts flexible door structures with automatic opening .

Man the list is endless really and you nall ready know this without me telling you why fight it, we all had them there was nothing else remember, but when the Daihatsu F20 ( Toyota Blizard)with the Toyota 12 R push rod petrol and F50 2.5 diesel showed up in the mid 1970s LR saw what a true workhorse should be like.

Japs are steel they do rot but dispite popular rumour so do landrovers.

Main thing thats kept these criples alive so long is aftermarket spares outlets clever marketing and formal and to a greater extent informal (play day poser ) competition .

They gained some brand loyal fans who quite fraankly would buy anything with an LR badge on it and indeed do look at the evoque for an example. Japs have it ive seen it all with LRs from series 1 80 inch to Range rovers, best engines are the old 2286 cc diesels and tdi 200s Best vehicles are series 1s and classic four door range rovers with the 200tdi instaled 1991-2 ish. The P38 was a down turn what with metro cab styling and suspension ecus what a desaster and it was down hill from there rapidly.

 

 

All of that said, and I agree with some points you make, why is it that for every 20 LR's (15 - 30 years old) that you see on the road, and there are loads of them, you only see the odd 1 jap 4x4?

 

Since the Jap 4x4's are so reliable, and I'm not saying they are not, why do you only see a fraction in numbers of old ones on the road compared to LR?

 

When was the last time you saw a 20+ year old Jap 4x4 driving on the road? I can't remember the last time I did. I can guarantee I will see a few LR's on my way home this afternoon, and that's driving through London!

Edited February 24, 2016 by Cosd

[TONY R]

I have to admit you've stated some very good facts there Enough in fact for me to realise you don't really know what you're talking about do you ? :lol:

Love it. :lol:

Edited February 24, 2016 by TONY R

[TONY R]

It is not that complicated to see why a good few survive, and i can only try and outline the key points as i see it from the years i have spent working on selling and trying to come to terms with issues of these melons.
To start they are simple and bolt together every last bit of them, the wiring general layout is basic and simple. Even the average hobby mechanic can do the rudimentary stuff to keep them running.
The fact they are a mechano set leaves them open to all the things i mentioned before, leaks drafts and flimsiness, and despite what you hear they are not good in a crash in standard form, roll one properly as they come and you will be sore for sure or much much worse.
The chassis is of quite large section and although thiner ga than most jap chassis it still is quite rigid partially due to the fact the sections are quite short and the size of the sections i already mentioned.
This chassis has to be constructed this way because the rest of this antique hangs off it, and offers considerably less to the overall structure than a typical welded mild steel monocoque type construction Japanese body on a generally narrower section but heavier ga jap chassis .
Mechanicals are antiquated but simple and the sparks being presented by Joe Lucas the prince of darkness one is guaranteed to receive entertainment frustration and disrepair in equal order. but with the added benefit of a good network of parts outlets throughout the world, and general not as expensive as the dedicated to brand electrics on jap 4x4s.
The allite body panels on the externals LRs discos RRs all tend to look smarter and hide the overall condition of the less obvious areas to the casual observer, and even when you are faced with welding or replacing adjacent mild steel panels like bulkheads on LRs or on RRs front inner wings etc etc, its a bolt off and job to access or indeed replace the rotten parts.
As i mentioned before the after market parts industry for LRs has been a big factor in their survival in good numbers, and historical firms like the old arrow services and Marsland chassis and many more have over the decades offered replacement chassis for the various models. And parts from across the world are distributed by many LR dedicated retail firms RCV famous four and others all pander to the land rover Enthusiasts every want and need.
So they have quite a lot stacked up there to help them keep running and on the road, and far far more than the typical Japanese 4x4 owner who have to make do with a few specialists like millners for cheap parts and consumables for their jap 4x4s.
Now the Typical Japanese truck 4x4 whatever will be predominantly mild steel welded construction on the main body some outer panels will normally bolt on but not anything like the LR mechano set, and like anything mild steel no matter how well made rot is inevitable, couple this to the brutish climate and our as a nations inability to cope with even a slight fall of snow or ice, and the resultant heavily salted road network we have. The results are obvious rot sets in, and the outer visible panels can soon look shabby, couple this with the modern trendy attitude not to get your hands dirty and washing the car is a push the button and get back in chore rather than proper clean and inspection job, the writing is on the wall for many of these cars from quite early on in their existence.
Does any of this make the Land rover a better survivor well quite frankly NO even in a pure sense its like the average LR is like cromwells dagger or triggers broom, just how much is original survivor here, how many of the alleged oft quoted 75% survivors are indeed genuine originals on original chassis and major components.
I think a true original LR is a lot less common than the figures appear to show.
And most probably no better than the japs which get such a bad press in this respect.
And not wanting to stir the pot too much on what could well be a delicate subject for quite a few LR owners How many are ringers you no ding dong bell alarm bells calling .
We all know of one, Perhaps that smart looking tax exempt reg number *** ***C metallic Epsom green LR with the coil sprung suspension 300TDI R 380 gearbox and power steering 90 bulkhead 90 wings and 90 chassis and if the galvanized the chassis or not is that a true 1965 survivor ?

[joe soapy]

disco 1 , you will have to replace the floor and maybe chassis too.

d2 watch for 3 amigos, although there is an electronic gizzmo that can give them a headache.

dont use ATF in a manual gearbox.

Dont let any body else drive it, they can bite the unwary with a tank slapper.

D2 is a great vehicle if you are lucky and feel confident. and want to move from being a

quaified engineer to experienced engineer

[Cosd]

It is not that complicated to see why a good few survive, and i can only try and outline the key points as i see it from the years i have spent working on selling and trying to come to terms with issues of these melons.

To start they are simple and bolt together every last bit of them, the wiring general layout is basic and simple. Even the average hobby mechanic can do the rudimentary stuff to keep them running.

The fact they are a mechano set leaves them open to all the things i mentioned before, leaks drafts and flimsiness, and despite what you hear they are not good in a crash in standard form, roll one properly as they come and you will be sore for sure or much much worse.

The chassis is of quite large section and although thiner ga than most jap chassis it still is quite rigid partially due to the fact the sections are quite short and the size of the sections i already mentioned.

This chassis has to be constructed this way because the rest of this antique hangs off it, and offers considerably less to the overall structure than a typical welded mild steel monocoque type construction Japanese body on a generally narrower section but heavier ga jap chassis .

Mechanicals are antiquated but simple and the sparks being presented by Joe Lucas the prince of darkness one is guaranteed to receive entertainment frustration and disrepair in equal order. but with the added benefit of a good network of parts outlets throughout the world, and general not as expensive as the dedicated to brand electrics on jap 4x4s.

The allite body panels on the externals LRs discos RRs all tend to look smarter and hide the overall condition of the less obvious areas to the casual observer, and even when you are faced with welding or replacing adjacent mild steel panels like bulkheads on LRs or on RRs front inner wings etc etc, its a bolt off and job to access or indeed replace the rotten parts.

As i mentioned before the after market parts industry for LRs has been a big factor in their survival in good numbers, and historical firms like the old arrow services and Marsland chassis and many more have over the decades offered replacement chassis for the various models. And parts from across the world are distributed by many LR dedicated retail firms RCV famous four and others all pander to the land rover Enthusiasts every want and need.

So they have quite a lot stacked up there to help them keep running and on the road, and far far more than the typical Japanese 4x4 owner who have to make do with a few specialists like millners for cheap parts and consumables for their jap 4x4s.

Now the Typical Japanese truck 4x4 whatever will be predominantly mild steel welded construction on the main body some outer panels will normally bolt on but not anything like the LR mechano set, and like anything mild steel no matter how well made rot is inevitable, couple this to the brutish climate and our as a nations inability to cope with even a slight fall of snow or ice, and the resultant heavily salted road network we have. The results are obvious rot sets in, and the outer visible panels can soon look shabby, couple this with the modern trendy attitude not to get your hands dirty and washing the car is a push the button and get back in chore rather than proper clean and inspection job, the writing is on the wall for many of these cars from quite early on in their existence.

Does any of this make the Land rover a better survivor well quite frankly NO even in a pure sense its like the average LR is like cromwells dagger or triggers broom, just how much is original survivor here, how many of the alleged oft quoted 75% survivors are indeed genuine originals on original chassis and major components.

I think a true original LR is a lot less common than the figures appear to show.

And most probably no better than the japs which get such a bad press in this respect.

And not wanting to stir the pot too much on what could well be a delicate subject for quite a few LR owners How many are ringers you no ding dong bell alarm bells calling .

We all know of one, Perhaps that smart looking tax exempt reg number *** ***C metallic Epsom green LR with the coil sprung suspension 300TDI R 380 gearbox and power steering 90 bulkhead 90 wings and 90 chassis and if the galvanized the chassis or not is that a true 1965 survivor ?

 

 

 

Did Land Rover make you redundant at any point?

[motty]

All of that said, and I agree with some points you make, why is it that for every 20 LR's (15 - 30 years old) that you see on the road, and there are loads of them, you only see the odd 1 jap 4x4?

 

Since the Jap 4x4's are so reliable, and I'm not saying they are not, why do you only see a fraction in numbers of old ones on the road compared to LR?

 

When was the last time you saw a 20+ year old Jap 4x4 driving on the road? I can't remember the last time I did. I can guarantee I will see a few LR's on my way home this afternoon, and that's driving through London!

I must say, cos, I find that quite hard to believe. Round where I live, I would say that 20 year old Jap 4x4s outnumber older landrovers by a fair bit. I see loads of new LRs, though.

[flynny]

Depends what your using it for mate/ putting in it,

 

I nearly bought a td3?? Range Rover, But there is no room in the back unless you drop the rear seats, so I bought a pick up for the same price as the Range Rover,(2nd hand)

 

The back gets all sorts thrown in from rubble to deer etc, stick to your pick up you will keep the interior clean

 

I'd love a 110 though

 

Flynny

[rodp]

 

 

Did Land Rover make you redundant at any point?

I wondered that, probably made "redundant" for so many factual errors :lol: I've got a mate who works (?) for LR experience around the world, and he gets a lot wrong as well. (There again, they were always a laughing stock at the comps) :lol:

[Cosd]

I must say, cos, I find that quite hard to believe. Round where I live, I would say that 20 year old Jap 4x4s outnumber older landrovers by a fair bit. I see loads of new LRs, though.

Must be the climate there mate, makes them rot and fall apart

[Cosd]

I wondered that, probably made "redundant" for so many factual errors :lol: I've got a mate who works (?) for LR experience around the world, and he gets a lot wrong as well. (There again, they were always a laughing stock at the comps) :lol:

Lol

I'm just winding him up! He is very articulate in his writing and obviously knows his cars, but I'm sure there are many who know more than I that could put up a better argument.

I can only talk from personal experience, maybe I'm lucky or simply just special...

 

Oh, and I just made it home from Acton without calling the recovery truck

Edited February 24, 2016 by Cosd

[rodp]

Lol

I'm just winding him up! He is very articulate in his writing and obviously knows his cars, but I'm sure there are many who know more than I that could put up a better argument.

I can only talk from personal experience, maybe I'm lucky or simply just special...

 

Oh, and I just made it home from Acton without calling the recovery truck

And me really, but I have "been round them" for a while, both in competition and road vehicles for over 45 years so you get to know them, and the people, and the facts ! .

[sishyplops]

disco 1 , you will have to replace the floor and maybe chassis too.

d2 watch for 3 amigos, although there is an electronic gizzmo that can give them a headache.

dont use ATF in a manual gearbox.

Dont let any body else drive it, they can bite the unwary with a tank slapper.

D2 is a great vehicle if you are lucky and feel confident. and want to move from being a

quaified engineer to experienced engineer[/quote

 

 

What makes you think I'm not an experience engineer I happen to be qualified as well as time served

Edited February 24, 2016 by sishyplops

[rodp]

Moved post

Edited February 24, 2016 by rodp