Savhmr Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Fabulous, thank you, mindful of spaces in the cabinet, perhaps the .17hmr is unnecessary? Or is a CF too much at 80 yards? It depends on what you are shooting at and why. If it's purely vermin control, HMR would be possibly the one I'd pick up first at closer range because more isn't needed but its for you to risk assess each shot anyway as you have to be more safety concious with all CF rifles due to the energy and range potential they have. Where you are shooting matters. CF onto vermin at 80yds with a backstop wouldn't concern me at all. Onto land that perhaps sloped too gently with a potential for ricochet would, especially if there were public ROW close by (or not so close by) so you have to make a judgement call. There's no such thing as overkill as the whole point about vermin control is that you're not intending to tickle them, you're intending to humanely dispatch them and whether it just does the job of vaporises them is irrelevant. For the pot, perhaps using .222 or .223 on rabbit isn't such a great idea as even if head shot, some of the frangible bullets can destroy small game due to the effects of velocity and such rapid expansion of most frangible varmint bullets. I have seen crow disappear into a cloud of feathers with little else remaining at 200 yds using lightweight super-fast varmint bullets from a .223. Just apply for whatever you have good reason too. You'll soon get a feel for what you reach for most and it's easier to drop a slot than to get a variation for something new, so start off with an application for whatever you think you need and take it from there. Do not constrict yourself to what you think you will get, but to what you think you will need. Also worth mentioning to factor in the cost of shooting CF, especially if you intend to shoot target too. It isn't cheap. Reloading isn't that cheap (set up costs can be typically £400 to £600 unless you go down the cheap and cheerful Lee classic reloader kits) and it only really is worth it for shooting lots of rounds or where you have the money to want to invest to tailor rounds bespoke to your rifle so that you will always be able to have a load ready and not rely on intermittent RFD supplies. It also means (if done right) more accurate and consistent ammo than factory. Factory rounds in say 223 for something like Remmy Accutip (varmint round) are about £1.25 per shot. You can buy 50 rounds of 22LR for a fiver and for just over twice that amount, 50 rounds of HMR. A day on the targets can set you back £100 in ammo alone, so be realistic about not just need, but cost. Pure hunting and vermin control is not expensive by comparison if purely for that because you wont get through the ammo as quick but it will still hurt the wallet every time you need to stock up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Thank you guys, this is all great information. On my first permission I think that 22rf is probably going to be enough, I will look at local shops and see what ammo they tend to keep and take it from there. Realistically I'm not going to be shooting Deer quite yet I don't think, it's a big enough learning curve going from air and shotgun without taking the leap to centre fire, I wondering about WMR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Thank you guys, this is all great information. On my first permission I think that 22rf is probably going to be enough, I will look at local shops and see what ammo they tend to keep and take it from there. Realistically I'm not going to be shooting Deer quite yet I don't think, it's a big enough learning curve going from air and shotgun without taking the leap to centre fire, I wondering about WMR? If you have a need for it then I really rate my WMR, but then again I rate my Air rifles, .22lr, HMR, centrefires and shotguns! Its all down to what you want to do with it. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 If you have a need for it then I really rate my WMR, but then again I rate my Air rifles, .22lr, HMR, centrefires and shotguns! Its all down to what you want to do with it. . In a perfect world I would like one gun to take Rabbits, winged vermin and possibly the odd fox if required by land owner ( they do have chickens). I would like it to be flat shooting, less affected by wind as possible, as quiet as possible and be capable for target quarry out to 150M ( my shooting skills permitting). This rifle won't need to be suitable for Deer, that can follow if necessary at a later stage, equally I will only shoot targets for zeroing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 (edited) In a perfect world I would like one gun to take Rabbits, winged vermin and possibly the odd fox if required by land owner ( they do have chickens). I would like it to be flat shooting, less affected by wind as possible, as quiet as possible and be capable for target quarry out to 150M ( my shooting skills permitting). This rifle won't need to be suitable for Deer, that can follow if necessary at a later stage, equally I will only shoot targets for zeroing. If you are talking rimfire then the HMR fits that bill over the WMR in my opinion, although both are usable to 150 yards, (personally I would not want to push either of them further than that). My WMR gets most of its work on Fox and Canada goose, for some reason I don't see it as a rabbit gun, the HMR does that (or .22lr). Every calibre is wind effected, the HMR is LESS effected by the wind the .22lr. If you are regularly shooting 150 yards or more then you either need 2 guns or simply get a Hornet, .22 or .17; these are a step up in power and money though! Edited March 18, 2016 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 fect world I would likIn a pere one gun to take Rabbits, winged vermin and possibly the odd fox if required by land owner ( they do have chickens). I would like it to be flat shooting, less affected by wind as possible, as quiet as possible and be capable for target quarry out to 150M ( my shooting skills permitting). This rifle won't need to be suitable for Deer, that can follow if necessary at a later stage, equally I will only shoot targets for zeroing. Combination guns do what you want above savage make or made them as do marlin do one called a predator and Baikal with the MP94. York guns were the importers and most probably your best bet to get one, but the sportsman have the franchise now but what stock they have i am not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobydog Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Apply for whatever you have good reason for, fox and rabbit control is good reason for a small centrefire eg 22 hornet, and if you are allowed to shoot the deer a larger centrefire is good reason for this. I got a 22 hornet and 270 on first application the feo said at the time if you don't ask you don't get. I booked a couple of guided stalks for using the 270 and the feo was happy with that as good reason. Good luck with your choices and don't be afraid to ask. S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Combination guns do what you want above savage make or made them as do marlin do one called a predator and Baikal with the MP94. York guns were the importers and most probably your best bet to get one, but the sportsman have the franchise now but what stock they have i am not sure. That has potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Combination guns do what you want above savage make or made them as do marlin do one called a predator and Baikal with the MP94. York guns were the importers and most probably your best bet to get one, but the sportsman have the franchise now but what stock they have i am not sure. https://youtu.be/Gr4ZSMoguDo Oh no! More variables! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 (edited) That has potential. 20 under .22 magnum now thats a very handy combination. Savage looks like its back in states anyway. . and who brings in marlin to the uk anyone. ? think they did an hornet under a 20 that could be good. https://youtu.be/QiRYoMQ9qEY .410 under 22 rf. Edited March 18, 2016 by TONY R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 If you are talking rimfire then the HMR fits that bill over the WMR in my opinion, although both are usable to 150 yards, (personally I would not want to push either of them further than that). My WMR gets most of its work on Fox and Canada goose, for some reason I don't see it as a rabbit gun, the HMR does that (or .22lr). Every calibre is wind effected, the HMR is LESS effected by the wind the .22lr. If you are regularly shooting 150 yards or more then you either need 2 guns or simply get a Hornet, .22 or .17; these are a step up in power and money though! Thank you, I'm now maybe thinking Hornet in .22 or .17 ( i need to research the relative benefits) plus 22lr for subs on rabbits (unless of course the Hornet has sub ammunition) The Corids are VERY twitchy as they are shot at by shotguns regularly on an adjacent spot of land so I need something with a decent range for them, I could also use this to remove the odd fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Savage looks like its back in states anyway. . and who brings in marlin to the uk anyone. ? think they did an hornet under a 20 that could be good.https://youtu.be/QiRYoMQ9qEY I would really be looking to take a shotgun separate to a rifle depending on what I had found the day before so this possibly wouldn't be useful to me, great for a farmer or gamekeeper though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Thank you, I'm now maybe thinking Hornet in .22 or .17 ( i need to research the relative benefits) plus 22lr for subs on rabbits (unless of course the Hornet has sub ammunition) The Corids are VERY twitchy as they are shot at by shotguns regularly on an adjacent spot of land so I need something with a decent range for them, I could also use this to remove the odd fox. As posts above though, a combination gun may be a possibility. I was looking more at your winged vermin being on the ground! Corvids are commonly a problem, particularly the magpies who often take flight in the next county when you turn up. However, if you want them at range you want a rifle of some sort and endeavour to find them on the ground. The Hornets are more powerful and noisier, and factory ammo is a lot more expensive than rimfire. If you reload you will be able to bring costs down, but still not as low as rimfire, you may also be able to develop a sub sonic load (an area I'm not a specialist in). Plenty of foxes fall to rimfires without any issue! It seems you have a bit of thinking to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 As posts above though, a combination gun may be a possibility. I was looking more at your winged vermin being on the ground! Corvids are commonly a problem, particularly the magpies who often take flight in the next county when you turn up. However, if you want them at range you want a rifle of some sort and endeavour to find them on the ground. The Hornets are more powerful and noisier, and factory ammo is a lot more expensive than rimfire. If you reload you will be able to bring costs down, but still not as low as rimfire, you may also be able to develop a sub sonic load (an area I'm not a specialist in). Plenty of foxes fall to rimfires without any issue! It seems you have a bit of thinking to do! Hi, yes winged vermin on the ground, sorry for any confusion. I need to call into the gun shop today as I lost my paunching knife last trip out, I will see what they carry and what FAO attitude is, I know they won't condition HMR for fox here. Far too many choices! Thanks for your advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Hi, yes winged vermin on the ground, sorry for any confusion. I need to call into the gun shop today as I lost my paunching knife last trip out, I will see what they carry and what FAO attitude is, I know they won't condition HMR for fox here. Far too many choices! Thanks for your advice. That's another whole can of worms, the latest Home Office guide list HMR and WMR as fox suitable (and the .22lr as appropriate), so, if your region will not condition it ask them why they are going against their Head Office advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 That's another whole can of worms, the latest Home Office guide list HMR and WMR as fox suitable (and the .22lr as appropriate), so, if your region will not condition it ask them why they are going against their Head Office advice! Thats fascinating, I really appreciate your input, butbe honest, I don't want to antagonise the local authority by questioning them, they are known to be difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Thanks guys, with the help of the gunshop I think I have cracked it. The solution seems to be a Sako Quad with .17 HMR, .22 LR and .22 WMR barrels. .22LR for subsonic Vermin .17 HMR for longer range Vermin .22 WMR for Fox alq If I decide I wish to pursue Deer calibre this can be a variation at a later stage and a new rifle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 I Have an existing SGC and am in the process of putting in for my FAC, which will probably take 18 months so plenty of time to save up the cash. I have a couple of permissions all of which have cleared ground (not sure what for exactly but they shoot Vermin, Fox and Deer) but am wary of applying for too much at this stage. My current intention is to request: Sect 1 Shotgun for winged vermin and practical shotgun (although not a member of a club so may leave practical off) If you're not a member of a club that does PSG just join either the UKPSA or FourIslands and that is accepted as 'good reason' by most forces. I think UKPSA membership is only £10 for the first year at the moment as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted March 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 If you're not a member of a club that does PSG just join either the UKPSA or FourIslands and that is accepted as 'good reason' by most forces. I think UKPSA membership is only £10 for the first year at the moment as well! Brilliant, thanks, that's great in case I wish to give this ago at some point without needing a variation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Most forces want you to have experance with a rim fire before granting a full bore and as you have no stalking experance or land it's unlikely you would get a centerfire fulbore caliber on initial application I hear this a lot but it makes no logic If a chap has some stalking but no rabbiting exactly what is his good reason for the 22? I suspect it's just feo spouting rubbish to put folk off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighteye Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Just my tuppence worth mate. .22 lr with cci velocitors will get you around the same ft/lbs as .17hmr . That will get you to extended ranges for the 22 as in 80-130 yards Get the .223 , there is more ammo choice and a better range of head weights and makes if you decide to reload . My .223 will group 1/2-3/4 inch at 200 yards with my pet home load . It grouped 1-1 1/4 with PPU ammunition right from the get go . I have only had my certificate about 18 months and I think that you would be best to start with the above and take it from there , atb Nighteye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Just my tuppence worth mate. .22 lr with cci velocitors will get you around the same ft/lbs as .17hmr . That will get you to extended ranges for the 22 as in 80-130 yards Get the .223 , there is more ammo choice and a better range of head weights and makes if you decide to reload . My .223 will group 1/2-3/4 inch at 200 yards with my pet home load . It grouped 1-1 1/4 with PPU ammunition right from the get go . I have only had my certificate about 18 months and I think that you would be best to start with the above and take it from there , atb Nighteye Ft Lb muzzle 25 50 100yards Velocitor 183 134 117 104 HMR V-Max 245 186 161 138 Noticeably less, and with generally less accuracy as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
single barrel Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 really great topic, and some very good information, well done guys and all the best for what ever you decide to go for elvis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighteye Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Ft Lb muzzle 25 50 100yards Velocitor 183 134 117 104 HMR V-Max 245 186 161 138 Noticeably less, and with generally less accuracy as well. As I said "around" and considering that the .22 is "around" twice the weight of a very very easily blown off target .17 round , it makes sense to me . If I am needing to I can use .22 shorts , .22 subs .22 hp , .22 standard and velocitors or stingers . How accurate do you really have to be with over 100ft/lbs at 100 yards on small vermin ? This is why most fac holders who hunt have at least one .22 in the cabinet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 As I said "around" and considering that the .22 is "around" twice the weight of a very very easily blown off target .17 round , it makes sense to me . If I am needing to I can use .22 shorts , .22 subs .22 hp , .22 standard and velocitors or stingers . How accurate do you really have to be with over 100ft/lbs at 100 yards on small vermin ? This is why most fac holders who hunt have at least one .22 in the cabinet Why do people persist with this fallacy? The HMR is considerably less wind effected than the vast majority of .22lr, check for yourself the wind drift of as many as you like in this ballistic guide kindly supplied by Federal. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rimfire.aspx "How accurate do you really have to be with over 100ft/lbs at 100 yards on small vermin ???" WHAT, are you kidding? The .22lr is an incredibly versatile round, that's why I have 2, and it is still the worlds biggest selling civil calibre. That doesn't mean it has the energy, accuracy or range of a HMR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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