Bangbangman Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 If things are so bad why are doctors flocking here from all over the world? They aren't. Large numbers of posts are unfilled. I short-list and interview candidates for Jnr Dr posts (frequently we have no UK applicants) and the number of foreign applicants is falling. Often the short-listed candidates from overseas don't accept offer of interview or decline the post later. Many of the countries from whom we used to poach Drs have growing expertise and status on the world's medical stage and the U.K.s pull is diminishing. There is a growing recruitment and retainment problem in UK healthcare: this contract will make that worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wb123 Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Yes- they'd get paid a lot more and we'd all have to have health insurance. I've worked in both models of healthcare and would choose the NHS over any of the current alternatives. Grrclark, the idea that this is just about Saturday pay is laughable: you have fallen for Hunt's spin. The removal of hours safeguards, the discrimination, the fallacy that you can spread the same number of staff more thinly without compromising safety: these are key issues at stake. We are witnessing the slow death of the NHS but no one cares or wants to hear it. Hunts plans for a 7-day NHS using the same number of junior Drs will worsen both elective and emergency care. I don't have a dog in this fight (I'm not a Jnr Doctor anymore and I'm not in England- I left) so I find it difficult to motivate myself to battle for the NHS in England. If public support wains (as it will eventually), Hunt will have his way and the public of England will get the NHS it deserves. Hopefully not something like the USA, Switzerland or other insurance-based system where clinical decisions are grossly swayed by the level of cover and the profitability of the treatment. Bye-bye evidence-based medicine. As it stands a huge amount of what I end up doing is backside covering work with very little evidence beyond that gained from defending legal cases. Is it that much worse when there is money involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB525 Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 I can't think of any strike that hasn't been about money. Most start off masquerading about public safety but they all end up about money. As has been said (and consistently ignored) this is now about Saturday pay which is where anyone with half a brain knew what it was about at the beginning and where it was going to end up at the end. If I was going to jump on a popularist band wagon I would do so in support of the nurses : over a career does 95% of the doctors' job, does 110% of the doctors' hours and gets 20% of the doctors' money. As for the doctors, I really can't get that concerned about these individuals who (taking an average across the profession) will in less than 15 years time be on 6 figures. Being a junior anything is pretty grim but it doesn't last forever and in the quack's game the stats say it's better than being a junior pretty much anything else. Hear hear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Our government are wonderful honest and upstanding, do not let 50 000 doctors tell you other wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 See elsewhere.... Doctors: "It's not about money". Gov't: "Will more money make it go away?" "Yes". "So it IS about money?" "You're evil & hate the NHS" "Trainee doctors currently have a starting salary of £22,636 - at Foundation Year 1 (F1) - rising with experience to reach £30,000" Basic. What is it like with overtime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangbangman Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 As it stands a huge amount of what I end up doing is backside covering work with very little evidence beyond that gained from defending legal cases. Is it that much worse when there is money involved? I'm not sure what you mean? My concern is that in healthcare systems where there is profit to be made, this skews decision-making toward the most profitable treatment, not necessarily the best treatment for the individual patient. It also makes it harder to produce unbiased research, potentially creating a vicious-circle. My advice to patients is based on what I think is best for them (based on good research wherever possible), not on what I or my hospital get paid, nor what the patient can afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 These junior doctors are so selfish, any body would think they had a 70k debt to pay off on that kind of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) Question for Wb123, regardless of where you think you'll be in 10 years; how much do you think you'll be earning? As a trainee I was on £10k and on qualification 2 years later I went to London on £28k and worked way way over 60 hours a week and I had plenty of student debt. I didn't **** and moan, I got on with it because I had chosen the path I was on and I had a reasonable expectation and plan as to where I would be in 10 years time. Anyone jumping on the 'the NHS is a sacred cow' bandwagon you really should save your breath for the nurses. Yes, it's the trainee solicitors, junior vets, junior doctors and newly qualified architects and accountants that I feel sorry for, said no one ever and for good ******* reason. . Edited April 26, 2016 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB525 Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) These junior doctors are so selfish, any body would think they had a 70k debt to pay off on that kind of money.Unlike every other graduate? One day people will realise that student "debt" is more a 30 year graduate tax than debt. Edited April 26, 2016 by BrowningB525 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 The doctors keep on about the safety of patients but, from what I have heard, the only juniors that will be worse off are those that are putting in loads of hours at the moment and are therefore tired. Cutting back their hours would make patients safer, I would have thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark74 Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) The doctors keep on about the safety of patients but, from what I have heard, the only juniors that will be worse off are those that are putting in loads of hours at the moment and are therefore tired. Cutting back their hours would make patients safer, I would have thought.Cutting hours??? So Hunt says, but I'd like to see how that is going to work out. Junior Dr's are working ridiculous hours (& getting paid for them) keeping hospitals running in the current format (this includes weekend work). They are not hiring any more Dr's, nurses or support staff but want full 7 day coverage...so if current staffing levels are struggling to cope & working long hours now, how can they reduce thier working hours as well as cover more days? Unless that is services will be cut back during the week? Edited April 26, 2016 by Mark74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Anyone jumping on the 'the NHS is a sacred cow' bandwagon you really should save your breath for the nurses. . A poignant and salient point, one VERY close to home, I'd be interested in what the RCN 'really' think of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark74 Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 A poignant and salient point, one VERY close to home, I'd be interested in what the RCN 'really' think of this. RCN is busy fighting the Government on thier own pay, conditions and the removal of Student Nursing Bursaries.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 RCN is busy fighting the Government on thier own pay, conditions and the removal of Student Nursing Bursaries.... I know, that's not my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark74 Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Sorry, I guess I missed your point 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sou'Wester Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Who's covering for the junior doctors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Sorry, I guess I missed your point 🙂 My point is how many nurses are put under pressure past their remit due to these strikes. I'm thinking really of nurse consultants. Are you a nurse or a medic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sou'Wester Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) My point is how many nurses are put under pressure past their remit due to these strikes. I'm thinking really of nurse consultants. Are you a nurse or a medic? I'm not, but I picked up on the thrust of your point. My friends a nurse. She has her own opinions. When my grandfather passed away it was the nursing staff that made him comfortable. Edited April 26, 2016 by Sou'Wester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark74 Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 My point is how many nurses are put under pressure past their remit due to these strikes. I'm thinking really of nurse consultants. Are you a nurse or a medic? No I work for MoD (another target for Government) my wife is a Nurse & my Aunt is a Sister, both supportive of the strike because it seems all within healthcare Nurses, Dr's, HCA's and paramedics are all in same situation as similar contract changes have been proposed for them too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayduster Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 First they came for the Socialists and I did not speak out as I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists and I did not speak out as I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out as I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Doctors and I did not speak out as I was not a Doctor. Then they came for me and there was no one to speak out for me. I'm pleased that the doctors are saying enough is enough and fighting back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 The daughter of a friend works in Barnstaple hospital. It has 51 departments, each with a head of department and an assistant head of department. Not sure if they are medical staff or managers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 has anyone bumped into a poor Doctor, some down on their luck scraping by in a damp council flat saving Sun coupons for a week away at Pontins NO not a chance stick a stethoscope round Henry or Herminia and they take on almost saint like qualities, plenty of people do longer hours and dont bitch about it and dont earn the money they will over 30 / 40 years with a pension that would choke a donkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 The daughter of a friend works in Barnstaple hospital. It has 51 departments, each with a head of department and an assistant head of department. Not sure if they are medical staff or managers. I'd like to think there would be a senior nurse in there somewhere, but unfortunately it's seen a 'waste' to have a nurse not nursing, so use a manager instead. The irony is so thick you could choke on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontastic Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 If doctors believe they are underpaid and overworked my other half would gladly swap places with them. She works 7 days a week, 8 hours a day on minimum wage. She looks after dementia patients she spends all day undressing them and washing **** off them, she strips down soiled beds and washes bedding and gets on her hands and knees and scrubs carpets when they **** on the floor. we may live together but we don't have a life together, in 20 years together we've never had a holiday, only been out for a meal once. No matter how hard they may think they work there's always someone working harder for so much less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 If doctors believe they are underpaid and overworked my other half would gladly swap places with them. She works 7 days a week, 8 hours a day on minimum wage. She looks after dementia patients she spends all day undressing them and washing **** off them, she strips down soiled beds and washes bedding and gets on her hands and knees and scrubs carpets when they **** on the floor. we may live together but we don't have a life together, in 20 years together we've never had a holiday, only been out for a meal once. No matter how hard they may think they work there's always someone working harder for so much less. You seem to describe nursing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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