Crumpler1991 Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Just purchased a browning a1 trap 30" but would love to add a 32" a1 to the collection anyone seen any lately for sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Just purchased a browning a1 trap 30" but would love to add a 32" a1 to the collection anyone seen any lately for sale? I've always been on the look out for one too but not seen one come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) You will not, 30" or 76 cm was the longest A1 manufactured. You could though have a set made for your gun for £3000. Edited October 20, 2016 by B25Modelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpler1991 Posted October 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 i have a 32 inch a1 in my cabinet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 Have also owned a 32" A1, dont see them often but they appear now and again.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 Rare but very nice beastie don't come up often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1440 Posted October 20, 2016 Report Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) I've owned a 32" a1 made in 1973. They were produced from the early 60s and all had the broadway rib. Those that have them hang onto them. Last one I saw on Gtrader was about a year ago. Keep your eyes peeled It's just a case of waiting. Edited October 20, 2016 by Paul1440 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) The first B25 framed guns were termed Superposed and had no A, B, C gradings as far as I am aware. We must prove the 32" guns are A1's or not Superposed 32" specials. I only have late 90's catalogues and 32" trap guns are not listed in the B25 range even those with the wider ribs are 30". Can anyone put up a picture of what is considered an A1 32". Also can anyone precisely state (with catalogue pictorial evidence) when the A1 designation came into being or for that matter when all the A,B,C,D gradings started. I think the early 70's but this is based on my 1974 A1 skeet only. At some point the Superposed name was dropped/removed in favour of the A, B, C, D grades...so when was that. In short I am saying that 1960 B25 guns were not termed A, B, C, D etc. But it does sound like a 1973 serial numbered gun is an A1. Edited October 21, 2016 by B25Modelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Its uncommon enough to find a 30 and you want a 32? While examples do exist they are incredibly rare and highly prized by those that own them. if you desperately want one you will probably need to to prise it out of the previous owners dead hands! My understanding of the "superposed" term is that in america the gun was sold as the Browning Superposed rather than the B25 name used in GB and the continent. the alpha numeric is just an indication of the grade of wood and engraving pattern- admittedly at some point they started appending the the alphanumeric to the serial number on the gun we are probably splitting hairs in that i would suspect that the op is talking about wanting a 32" B25 with 32" barrels without shelling out 15k for a new one and thinks one of the rare 32" trap models are his way forward Edited October 21, 2016 by Canis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodeer Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/browning/over-under/12-gauge/b25-a1-161021130133686 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/browning/over-under/12-gauge/b25-a1-161021130133686 4667S2 = 1962...IMHO that was pre A, B, C, D designation and therefore just Superposed. It's being picky but right. I had two, gunsmith shooting collegues when I lived north and both had these very early B25 models, in fact both being smiths had made additional sets of barrels for their guns, yet both never ever termed them A1's. Edited October 21, 2016 by B25Modelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1440 Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) The first B25 framed guns were termed Superposed and had no A, B, C gradings as far as I am aware. We must prove the 32" guns are A1's or not Superposed 32" specials. I only have late 90's catalogues and 32" trap guns are not listed in the B25 range even those with the wider ribs are 30". Can anyone put up a picture of what is considered an A1 32". Also can anyone precisely state (with catalogue pictorial evidence) when the A1 designation came into being or for that matter when all the A,B,C,D gradings started. I think the early 70's but this is based on my 1974 A1 skeet only. At some point the Superposed name was dropped/removed in favour of the A, B, C, D grades...so when was that. In short I am saying that 1960 B25 guns were not termed A, B, C, D etc. But it does sound like a 1973 serial numbered gun is an A1. The A,B,C& D engraving patterns were first designated in the 1930s by Felix Funken the Master engraver. However these were the enraving patterns used in Europe. th gun model also more commmonly known as B25s. The USA had it's own engraving patterns. Grade 1 standard, Lightning pigeon grade, Diana grade,Midas grade and the gun Model is more commonly reffered to as superposed guns. I Guess what they are called is dependant on where you are located. 32 inch trap guns have been available since 1938. (Page 66 of Ned Schwings The Superposed John M Brownings Last legacy book) the Broadway Trap as said in an earlier post was available since 1961. The one I had was Definately a B25.(Superposed) A1. Post Production era id 70's) things have changed with the B25/Superposed now a Custom shop gun and Engraving pattens have altered somewhat with very few of the originals being available with a few new ones added in. Edited October 21, 2016 by Paul1440 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) We must therefore, without documentation to support otherwise, accept all/any plain black action B25 frame with minimal or no engraving as being an A1...in Europe. Using Google Translate this is very interesting ref the start of the FN engravers and to note they are not a part of FN but a co-operative company. http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/graveurs/a%20a%20graveurs%20fr%20gb.htm Edited October 21, 2016 by B25Modelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsDad Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 As the late Bob Braithwaite won his gold medal in 68 using a C3; and was subsequently presented with a D grade for his achievement, the grading system using A, B, C, & D was evidently in existence some time before the early 70s. The gun featured on Guntrader supplied by dodeer is as near as damit is to swearing an A1, which bears out others comments that they have owned or seen one. As Paul 1440 has pointed out, the term Superposed was a term like Over/Under rather than an indication of the grade. I have an early catalogue that bears out his remark that very early `Superposed` were available in grades Standard/Lightning. Pigeon. Diana & Midas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 As the late Bob Braithwaite won his gold medal in 68 using a C3; and was subsequently presented with a D grade for his achievement, the grading system using A, B, C, & D was evidently in existence some time before the early 70s. The gun featured on Guntrader supplied by dodeer is as near as damit is to swearing an A1, which bears out others comments that they have owned or seen one. As Paul 1440 has pointed out, the term Superposed was a term like Over/Under rather than an indication of the grade. I have an early catalogue that bears out his remark that very early `Superposed` were available in grades Standard/Lightning. Pigeon. Diana & Midas. Yes good point on Bobs guns. Interesting he used a 30" Trap gun though. I also have a copy of that catalogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1440 Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 We must therefore, without documentation to support otherwise, accept all/any plain black action B25 frame with minimal or no engraving as being an A1...in Europe. Using Google Translate this is very interesting ref the start of the FN engravers and to note they are not a part of FN but a co-operative company. http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/graveurs/a%20a%20graveurs%20fr%20gb.htm The very early guns had no engraving and no name however, A1 engraving pattern is documented as that in the picture of the gun for sale. Get Ned Schwings book..they are all there. A1,A2,B1,B2,C1,C2,C3,D grades right up to the Midas grade plus all the American patterns and some examples of the ones done on request. It's not cheap but a must for anyone has a keen interest in yo the history of the production of the B25 at Herstal including the Engraving shop when it was in house and contracted out in the initial period of production. The co operative was formed it looks like in 1987 probably as a cost saving excercise as it was expected that the B25 would cease to be produced due to cost. Probably to keep the engravers in work as the number of B25s made was very low at that time. The book was published in 1993/4 so what has happened after that and the brocures since then cover these later offerings from the Custom Shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 So Ned MUST say when the A1 appeared then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsDad Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 Hopefully he is a member which would save us a large wad of cash buying his book !!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Hopefully he is a member which would save us a large wad of cash buying his book !!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I found a nice leather bound 1st edition for £1000. That said I do have a 2nd edition James CHETHAM, The Angler's Vade Mecum 1689 which is mega rare. Edited October 21, 2016 by B25Modelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1440 Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 Yes good point on Bobs guns. Interesting he used a 30" Trap gun though. I also have a copy of that catalogue. Bob shot the first 100 competition straight at OT in the UK with a Browning B25 A1 Game gun. He bought the C3 as the Trap shooters if the time told him a dedicated trap gun would be better. The one used at Mexico was actually the second C3 that he owned. Yes, I found a nice leather bound 1st edition for £1000. That said I do have a 2nd edition James CHETHAM, The Angler's Vade Mecum 1689 which is mega rare. Have a look on Ebay USA site.. theres usually a few come up every now an again for a couple of hundred $ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) Bob shot the first 100 competition straight at OT in the UK with a Browning B25 A1 Game gun. He bought the C3 as the Trap shooters if the time told him a dedicated trap gun would be better. The one used at Mexico was actually the second C3 that he owned. Have a look on Ebay USA site.. theres usually a few come up every now an again for a couple of hundred $ Yes I have looked and they are not precisely the same book or issue. There are later versions which sell for that money. It's OK I do know what I have and what it's value is. It would also appear that while many have suggested to buy Ned's book cos it WILL provide the answer, nobody actually owns it otherwise we would have had a precise answer. Ahhh the joys of all that knowledge. Edited October 22, 2016 by B25Modelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 1971 catalogue, look to bottom of page Standard finish A1/A2 Standard finish Engraved B1/B2 Edited October 28, 2016 by B25Modelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 The exact year for the Browning A1 is pre war a keeper friend of mine had a A1 which was made in 1933 number was less than 100 if my memory serves me right I think it was 76.The A1 and the B1 became popular in the early 1960s then the A1 came in three barrel lenghts of 26.1/2 , 28, 30 inch barell ,it was also single trigger or double trtgger in 1960 the price for a standard new Browning A1 was £121/2/6d if you wanted a ventilated rib it was £3/11/3d extra .I bought in 1961 a new Browning B1 which cost me £148/4/0d and sold it about 10years agoo for over a £1000. Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B25Modelman Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 In 1980 I purchased a NOS A1 skeet for £650. In the 90's a NOS 30 special sporting for £1800, again in the 90's a B2G 30" sp sp for....guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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