Border collie

[Blundy]

Hi

I know this is pretty weird one but we're after new puppy now me I want lab or springer to train or try anyway to be gun dog. However wife and daughter are insisting we get border collie , would I have any chance of making working dog out of one or are they a no no ??

[Wb123]

They are all the rage on the driven sheep circuit...

[UKPoacher]

Hi

I know this is pretty weird one but we're after new puppy now me I want lab or springer to train or try anyway to be gun dog. However wife and daughter are insisting we get border collie , would I have any chance of making working dog out of one or are they a no no ??

 

I used to work three in the beating line. They were as tireless as springers, but steadier. They used their brains more too. You would be able to train a border collie to flush and retrieve using similar methods to that of a springer or lab once you have given the dog the idea of what you expect. Springers and labs have natural instincts that the collies doesn't possess. But once you have it retrieving a dummy and then progress to game it should quickly pick up the idea.

Edited January 14, 2017 by UKPoacher

[Danger-Mouse]

They are all the rage on the driven sheep circuit...

 

 

Reckoned to be the smartest of all the dog breeds. Retrieving may not be their natural forte but as UK Poacher's post proves they could potentially be trained for almost anything. They're a working breed anyway so you'd just be channeling their energies into a different field.

 

Going slightly off topic I saw a couple the other day that looked like the Arnold Schwartzenegger's of the collie world. Turned out they were BC/Husky cross breeds. A stunning pair of dogs.

[Blundy]

Thanks for the positive replies , could you recommend books or DVD to buy their are so many

[Danger-Mouse]

 

How smart?

 

[shropshire-jon]

hi Blundy

 

For many thousands of years man has been selectively breeding dogs to do different jobs. The best dog in the beating field would be a spaniel

the best dog for picking up would be a retriever, but here is the thing. there wouldn't be a great deal of difference, depending on what you training the dog for, could a collie lead a blind person? the answer would be yes. Is it the best dog for the job? the answer would be no. I have a springer, but he aint gonna win any field trials, but he keeps me company in the hide and he fetch birds back, and he even flush a rabbit or two, he wouldnt look out of place on a formal shoot. Whos to say that your collie couldnt do that, but i think it would be frowned upon in the shooting field ( and wrongly so ). one of the best beating dogs i ever saw was a heinz ( 57 varieties ) good luck on your choice and remember the dog choice is entirely personal to you and your family. It may not be the best dog in the world, but the big question is does it really need to be. If he brings happiness to you and your family surely thats all that matters. Hope this helps

[scotslad]

Generally (althou not always) collies often are scared of loud noises, so u might have to work extra hard to get it trained for the gun.

 

Personally i hate collies dunno why anyone other than a shepherd would have 1, probably bite more folk than any other breed and there snidey about it sneaking up on u from behind. Been bit a couple of times off collies and so has my dad and proper deep drawing blood bites

I think its all the energy and brains they have if ur not exercising and mentally stimulating them enough can turn to boredum and agreesion sometimes

[shropshire-jon]

Hi Blundy

 

Books and dvd's are a starting point however. Training can be an easy issue or incredibly complex, I made mistakes that are coming to light now,

The best advice i can give is dont be in to much of a rush. Don't start gun dog training to early, obedience, house training, start straight away. Play retrieving games. DONT TRY TO STOP HIM RUNNING IN in the early stages. Believe me it much easier to stop a dog running in than it is to try and get drive back. That as much as you need till hes 8 months old. That gives you plenty of time to formulate a plan, take advice read up. watch some youtube.

 

Hope this helps

[shropshire-jon]

Hi Scotslad

 

I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with some, I have seen gundogs petrified by the shotgun, which almost always to much to soon, and that is near impossible to correct.

 

Collies are biters because that is what they have been bread to do, protect the pack and more importantly protect the flock, ( historically ) you only have to look at another breed to see that, the german shepard, a sheep dog with an attack attitude.

 

But that dosent mean to say that all collies are biters, but it is a possibility and one that should be considered.

[Blundy]

Some more good points guys, all I can do is try it and see how it goes if I find it not suitable not end of world still be a loved pet . Not wanting full on gundog be happy if I can get it to retrieve pigeons etc

[Blundy]

If any of you know anyone who is a trainer from my neck of woods I would love to get proper training , I'm in Sheffield but willing to travel

[shropshire-jon]

Hi Blundy

 

Gundog training professionally is quite costly, cheap for what they do, but still quite an expense. Half the fun with a dog that is trained by yourself

is that when he quarters his ground like something on speed. drops when the bird is flushed, sits there looking at you for direction. goes when hes told to drops to the whistle and then takes hand direction and then comes back with the game un marked sits in front of you while you take it from his mouth you can look at your mates and say i did that. Them few sentences takes many months of preparation and training. Does my dog do that ? i wish.

 

hope this helps

[Bumble]

Be careful when desensitising them to bangs. My collie and the two my mate owns are both scared witless by gunshots & fireworks (mine can't even stand the air rifle!), despite efforts to gently introduce them to bangs when they were puppies.

[scotslad]

Hi Scotslad

 

I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with some, I have seen gundogs petrified by the shotgun, which almost always to much to soon, and that is near impossible to correct.

 

Collies are biters because that is what they have been bread to do, protect the pack and more importantly protect the flock, ( historically ) you only have to look at another breed to see that, the german shepard, a sheep dog with an attack attitude.

 

But that dosent mean to say that all collies are biters, but it is a possibility and one that should be considered.

 

When u start generalising about a whole breed u will always get exceptions, but usually some of the generalisations have some degree of truth for the majority of the breed.

 

No matter wot breed of dog u have there is a chance of making it gun shy/nervous if u don't introduce it correctly, but with a pup from a working gundog ur chances of it becoming gun shy are far lower, i know a mate that still just takes his dogs out and fires his 12g over their head, worst thing u could do, but he's done it that way for 30 odd year and never had any prblem so far.

U might get away with that with labs/spaniels but i'm almost crtain u wouldn't with a collie.

They do have a reoutation as a breed for being noise sensitive

 

 

Also not sure wot the scenting abilities of collies is? Most of the search and recue dogs are collies thou so can't be that bad

 

Those dogs that have bit me and a few others that have tried are just farm dogs, not really trained or exercised that much and had a reputatiion for biting but i had my eyes on the other dog.

 

Gundog training clubs can be quite good to help novices training, if u search the KC website some of the local ones will be listed. Not entirely sure how welcome u'd be with a collie thou? Sometimes cen be retricted to just labs or spaniels, but even volanteer to throw dummies for them and watch learn how to do it.

 

I think it might be a struggle esp if ur 1st time training, but will be quite good mental stimulation for the dog if u keep it up, also see a lot doing dog agility too which is another good way to stimulate them

[UKPoacher]

Just to answer a few points from my own experience.

 

Any dog can be gun shy. Gun dog breeds included. My springer was so sensitive to noise that she hid upstairs when I peeled off sellotape from a roll. My second police GSD ran a mile when he heard the starting pistol for the first time. Two months later we won the South York's Shield for criminal work, a set of exercises that involves taking out a man armed with a pistol that is fired three time; once to attract the dog's attention, again as the dog approaches and finally while the dog is 'on the sleeve'. It can be overcome.

 

Collies are naturally biting dogs? No idea where that comes from. A collie that has natural collie instincts will do either or both of the following things. It will circle the 'flock' to the far side from the handler so as to prevent the 'flock' escaping and it will 'eye' the flock or one member of it. The 'eye' of a collie is the way that the dog overpowers a truculent sheep by staring it out. A working collie will not touch a sheep. There are exceptions where wild sheep have to be caught and held, but they are not the general rule and most ISDS collies conform to the general rule or they wouldn't be registered. Two of my dogs were ISDS and the other from other stock. One of the ISDS dogs would point like a GSP. That was the 'eye' part of her instinct. She hunted and went to point at game. then flushed on command. The other ISDS just wanted to please and he would demolish any cover he could or go over the top of that he couldn't. the third, the non-ISDS hunted like a springer except that she learned where pheasants were likely to be hiding and concentrated more of her efforts on bushes and other likely places and less time on bare, open ground.

 

Collies aren't as likely to be accepted on a shoot? Agreed. Until they are seen working and providing that they work well and under control. As I said earlier; I had three and the look on the gamekeeper's face when I turned up for the first time and got the three collies out was a picture. I was shunned. No other word for it. But as I put them into the car at the end of the day that same keeper came over to make sure that I was available for the rest of the calendar. I later had a German Shepherd bitch that would flush and pick up and worked a beating line just as enthusiastically as a lab and under control. One beater's day she was the only dog working in front of 8 guns. She flushed and retrieved over 50 pheasants in snow. The type of powdery snow that would stop a springer, but not her.

 

Scenting abilities? Collies are used for drugs, explosives and currency detection. Just as springers and labs are. In my experience the collies is perfectly able to perform the tasks involved in shooting.

 

Downsides? They have little or no natural hunting instinct that you would find in a gun dog breed. Same with my GSD. Then again, neither had my current dog, a springer, when I got her. But, they are easily trained and once they are given that role they will perform well enough for most shooter's needs.

 

I'm not talking hypothetically. I had three collies and they all worked a beating line at least as good as the recognised gun dog breeds that were on the shoot and would flush and retrieve for me on walk up days and hide shooting. You just have to train them differently in the early stages. Get them to retrieve a tennis ball (they are virtually invisible to dogs when on grass). Then to find and retrieve on a seen launch, then blind retrieves and gradually work up. The way I got them onto game was to wrap a partridge or pigeon in a stocking and throw it for the dog. Only one, the GSD refused to pick up the bird first time. But when I turned and walked away she wouldn't leave it and carried it alongside me back to the car. Then you are at the stage when the training is identical to a gun dog breed.

[scotslad]

U must of been around very different collies to the ones i generally see (the fact u've trained them probably does make them the exception ) i've seen them have to be kicked of sheep by the shepherds quite a few times. And even at the local sheep dog auction its not that unusual for a dog to give a sheep a good worrying by time it gets to far end of the field

 

But most farm dogs have very little training and often bored and so do tend to be quite bitey

Edited January 15, 2017 by scotslad

[E.w.]

UKPoacher, I don't disagree with you but I've kept a flock of 1200 sheep here and no two sheepdog are the same regardless of the breed, sheepdogs are highly trainable and soft by nature, granted there are lines in the breed that are aggressive but these are for working cattle and yes they can be spiteful dogs. The only worry I would have is when entering the dog to gun fire great care should be taken as sheepdog are highly sensitive and this would be were most people would fail as they tend not to forget anything you teach them.

[shropshire-jon]

Hi everybody

 

A working collies primary task is to round up sheep, but hundreds of years ago there selective breeding was also for protection. for the pack leader the Shepard and for the flock. no dog breeds are naturally biters of there own pack but bite for lots of different reasons. Collies are a little bit nippy that has something to do with there breeding historically.

 

So Blundy you have the experience of a guy that has worked both German Sheppard and collies in the shooting field, and has done it successfully but he also said that it was frowned upon. But he had a strong enough character to be able to carry it off. And has he rightly said once proven he was welcomed by the keeper and the beating line. So back to the original question can collies do the job. yes no doubt but they will never be good enough for a field trial. that said neither is my springer but he is plenty good enough for me.

 

Onto another point for poacher, In my younger days i bred and worked a cross breed dog. and it had to be a crossbreed, ie the lurcher in my case collie x greyhound trying to breed brains and coat of the collie power and speed of the greyhound. would it not be a good idea for the average pigeon/rough shooter to have a cross breed lab x spaniel as the average shooter is a bit of rough shooting some rabbit shooting and some pigeon shooting?

[Blundy]

What's your opinions on springador if I can persuade mrs to try one doubt it very much

[shropshire-jon]

hi bundy

 

as i said lab x springer dosent matter to much i dont think which way round as both are working field dogs. and should be ideal. the problem for me is this the very name itself, ill explain i have been around shoot dogs pretty much all my life, an accidental mating of lab and springer would result in the pups being given away, then the yuppies got onto it. i can buy a good pedigree working cocker for 500 but 850 for a mutt the " cockerpoo " the world has gone mad there is far to much money about.

 

what is the primary reason for you to have a dog ?

[UKPoacher]

U must of been around very different collies to the ones i generally see (the fact u've trained them probably does make them the exception ) i've seen them have to be kicked of sheep by the shepherds quite a few times. And even at the local sheep dog auction its not that unusual for a dog to give a sheep a good worrying by time it gets to far end of the field

 

But most farm dogs have very little training and often bored and so do tend to be quite bitey

 

The first two I bought were ISDS registered. To be registered both parents have to have achieved a decent mark at sheepdog trials of a recognised standard. Any dog that bites a sheep during that trial would be disqualified or heavily penalised. Now, I did say that there were exceptions. Some sheep, the semi-wild type on some Scottish islands for example have to be robustly handled and those farmers will have dogs that will catch sheep and hold them. Ideally without harming them. Another exception would the the dogs that are used in auctions or slaughter houses. Those dogs are working under far more pressure than a 'normal' working farm dog. Its like comparing a village community bobby with a riot squad officer.

 

At the end of the day a dog is a dog. Some breeds may have strong traits that will be useful or unhelpful to what you want a dog to do. All my three collies had different temperaments, different ways of working and required different means of training. My two police dogs couldn't have been more different in every way but both did the job required of them. My current ESS had no idea that she was a spaniel until I started taking her out shooting.

 

With a collie you have to train it how to hunt and retrieve. With a springer you have to train it when not to hunt and retrieve. And that is where most people fail.

[Blundy]

I'm quite new to shooting only shot clays upto now but nxt week starting on pigeons so really for retrieving the birds mainly but down the line who knows what's ahead

[shropshire-jon]

Hi Blundy

 

A lab or one of the retriever breeds suits that best probably, as your new to training they a most biddable will sit in a hide etc etc. dont get me wrong you'll still need to do the work which takes time.

 

I chose a spaniel as they will retrieve and when things are slow i can have a walk around for a rabbit or two. but young spaniels can be hard work in a hide thay are also fairly thin coated so sitting around in the cold if uncomfortable for them.

 

I openly asked to help you try to make a decision, if however the dog will be a pet first and a worker second then that makes things a little more complicated spaniels in the house are a nightmare if they not stimulated enough, Cockers are slightly better. labs shed in the summer.

 

My first dog i bought from a trainer he was rejected as a field trialer as he was to slow. but he was upto 3/4 of his training. he was the best dog i ever had. and i paid 300 for him. but it did allow me to shoot almost straight away but i still had to put the work in, in the summer months.

he earned me many days of driven pheasant

 

hope this helps

[UKPoacher]

And don't forget that labs will eat the furniture, collies will chase buses and all springers are mental