Vince Green Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Nope! It's people being conned into believing they would get something for nothing! But that's been Labour's way for years, buying votes by offering financial bribes of one sort or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 But that's been Labour's way for years, buying votes by offering financial bribes of one sort or another. That is why Gordon Brown created the benefit dependant society where a large number of people were better off on benefits than in work; it ensured a power base of solid labour voters. Benefits (and student grants) should be for those who cannot otherwise manage for themselves - being the injured and disabled, those too ill to work, the elderly etc. Student grants (which is how higher education used to be funded) used to be available for the less well off on a sliding scale - when I went to University, I got about 30% paid (by the local authority) and the rest was funded by holiday jobs, parental contributions etc. People from less well off families got 'full' grants (about £1000 a year then) and those from wealthy families a 'minimum grant', which if I remember rightly was £50. The sliding scale was based on family (i.e. parents) income. This idea that education was 'free' is cobblers - it never was free, but so called 'full' grants were available to those who had little chance of funding from family sources. Some got the full grant, the majority got somewhere between minimum and full, and a few got minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Nope! It's people being conned into believing they would get something for nothing! That my friend is horse carp... They know it wouldn't and couldn't happen as do most people, it would not be affordable, hence why I said its people wanting something for nothing.. If someone goes to uni and gets debt, they pay it back out of their salary and majority will never pay 100% back, people who do and then dont earn over a certain amount never pay it back, yet the moan and b*tch about a debt they will never pay off in full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Again no, the only horse carp is your failure to recognise and acknowledge this thread is about the con............not about anyone expecting something for nothing! Not affordable? Rubbish! As the fifth wealthiest country in the world the government of this country could afford to fund anything they wanted to........the fact is, they choose to spend the money on other things! That my friend is horse carp... They know it wouldn't and couldn't happen as do most people, it would not be affordable, hence why I said its people wanting something for nothing.. If someone goes to uni and gets debt, they pay it back out of their salary and majority will never pay 100% back, people who do and then dont earn over a certain amount never pay it back, yet the moan and b*tch about a debt they will never pay off in full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 As the fifth wealthiest country in the world the government of this country could afford to fund anything they wanted to....... Whilst we may be 'wealthy' by some measures - we have MASSIVE debt. We currently owe approaching 1.9 million, million pounds. It is growing at over £5000 per SECOND. Every person in this country in effect owes over £30,000, or every taxpayer over £52,000. But in fact the truth is much worse, factoring in all liabilities including state and public sector pensions, the real national debt is closer to £4.8 million million, some £78,000 for every person in the UK. If you doubt me see here http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/ It is truly frightening; The current (in a low interest rate period) interest is about the same cost as THE WHOLE of defence spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Whilst we may be 'wealthy' by some measures - we have MASSIVE debt. We currently owe approaching 1.9 million, million pounds. It is growing at over £5000 per SECOND. Every person in this country in effect owes over £30,000, or every taxpayer over £52,000. But in fact the truth is much worse, factoring in all liabilities including state and public sector pensions, the real national debt is closer to £4.8 million million, some £78,000 for every person in the UK. If you doubt me see here http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/ It is truly frightening; The current (in a low interest rate period) interest is about the same cost as THE WHOLE of defence spending. I don't doubt you! But is there any country in the world that hasn't got a national debt? And plenty are far far deeper in debt than the UK.......again the government choose to spend our money on things other than paying off the national debt! Most of the people of this country are completely unaware of the income and expenditure of UK plc.....how much precisely does the exchequer take in per year in all taxation, duty etc?.......And precisely what does the government spend it on? I don't know, do you? But I suspect not many would approve if they did know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Whilst we may be 'wealthy' by some measures - we have MASSIVE debt. We currently owe approaching 1.9 million, million pounds. It is growing at over £5000 per SECOND. Every person in this country in effect owes over £30,000, or every taxpayer over £52,000. But in fact the truth is much worse, factoring in all liabilities including state and public sector pensions, the real national debt is closer to £4.8 million million, some £78,000 for every person in the UK. If you doubt me see here http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/ It is truly frightening; The current (in a low interest rate period) interest is about the same cost as THE WHOLE of defence spending. The solution is very straight forward but people won't accept austerity and labour, SNP etc continually use it as a stick to beat the government with. One of the big incentives in my mind for leaving the EU is to get rid of that financial millstone from around our necks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I don't doubt you! But is there any country in the world that hasn't got a national debt? And plenty are far far deeper in debt than the UK.......again the government choose to spend our money on things other than paying off the national debt! Yes, but very few and oil rich states as you would expect - you can Google it; but actually the UK is pretty high up the list of debtors - especially as we had north sea oil to help us. For example, Norway invest their wealth from oil and pension contributions (Google Norway Sovereign Wealth Fund, it makes very interesting reading) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Most of the people of this country are completely unaware of the income and expenditure of UK plc.....how much precisely does the exchequer take in per year in all taxation, duty etc?.......And precisely what does the government spend it on? I don't know, do you? But I suspect not many would approve if they did know! That is very true - and a major part of the problem - our (various) governments hide it from us. A HUGE part is spent on welfare - NHS, pensions, benefits. A surprisingly small amount on transport, defence - again, Google is your friend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 The solution is very straight forward but people won't accept austerity and labour, SNP etc continually use it as a stick to beat the government with. One of the big incentives in my mind for leaving the EU is to get rid of that financial millstone from around our necks I 100% agree, but people don't want to admit to themselves that we have already mortgaged ourselves, our childrens future and probably our grandchildren's future ....... and yet we are still increasing debt - and many people want Corbyn/Abbott/MacDonald - who have promised to spend MUCH MUCH more ....... It is really quite frightening when you see the real true figures - Oh and we sold off all our gold - and just about the lowest point in the market - and didn't use that to pay back any debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Where it is spent Note that education actually does quite well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Government national debt per country as % of GDP in 2016... Japan 237% Greece 158% Jamaica 146% Italy 127% Ireland 117% Portugal 123% Cyprus 107% Belgium 105% Spain 97% UK 84% Germany 82% Google is indeed your friend! If the government chose not to spend billions of £ on HS2 for example.....they could use the money to reduce the national debt, if they reduced the billions of £ (under the guise of aid) they give to foreign countries,that also could help pay off the national debt, there are hundreds of projects the government could review in a concerted effort to reduce the national debt....but they choose not to do so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Where it comes from As can be seen the 3 'big ones' are income tax, National Insurance and VAT. Things like Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax, Stamp Duty, Vehicle tax are small contributors, so Corbyns promises to increase the rates for these will actually bring in very little more real money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 If the government chose not to spend billions of £ on HS2 for example.....they could use the money to reduce the national debt, if they reduced the billions of £ (under the guise of aid) they give to foreign countries,that also could help pay off the national debt, there are hundreds of projects the government could review in a concerted effort to reduce the national debt....but they choose not to do so! I do agree, but we have the present government who are talking austerity, but not really doing it .......... and the Labour alternative who want to end austerity and spend, spend, spend Frying pan and Fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Where it is spent Note that education actually does quite well Who wrote it... the government? Where is foreign aid shown in the pie chart? Or the cost of government? And it doesn't tell us how much the exchequer raked in via tax, duty etc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Government national debt per country as % of GDP in 2016... Japan 237% Greece 158% Jamaica 146% Italy 127% Ireland 117% Portugal 123% Cyprus 107% Belgium 105% Spain 97% UK 84% Germany 82% Google is indeed your friend! If the government chose not to spend billions of £ on HS2 for example.....they could use the money to reduce the national debt, if they reduced the billions of £ (under the guise of aid) they give to foreign countries,that also could help pay off the national debt, there are hundreds of projects the government could review in a concerted effort to reduce the national debt....but they choose not to do so! Might also add Norway 34% Sweden 38% Turkey 35% Switzerland 16% New Zealand 38% Australia 34% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Who wrote it... the government? Where is foreign aid shown in the pie chart? Or the cost of government? And it doesn't tell us how much the exchequer raked in via tax, duty etc! That happens to be the spending chart; Overseas aid (2016) was 13.3 £bn. Cost of government is 'in' the above as these are basically departmental budgets. For 2014, expenditure was £732 bn against income of £648 bn - the balance being made up by increase in national debt of £84 bn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB525 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Who wrote it... the government? Where is foreign aid shown in the pie chart? Or the cost of government? And it doesn't tell us how much the exchequer raked in via tax, duty etc! Foreign aid is 0.7%of GDP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Might also add Norway 34% Sweden 38% Turkey 35% Switzerland 16% New Zealand 38% Australia 34% Yes but you were singling out the UK debt, to counter that, I listed several countries with higher national debt....I am aware there are some countries with a smaller national debt......but they are never the less......in debt!....some with little or no money to pay it off!......how many countries have national debt and how many have none? Taking the above into consideration, I fail to see the relevance in citing the UK national debt? The UK Is still awash with money! and could fund anything it chose to.......but as I said previously the government chooses to spend it on things other than paying off the national debt....much like all countries! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 The UK Is still awash with money! Yes, BORROWED money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I won't get into a statistical arguement because the figures quoted come from the government itself not from an independent source, and I wouldn't accept or believe anything they told me.......even Benjamin Disraeli the Politician and British Prime Minister concluded "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics"...........from the horses mouth comes to mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Yes, BORROWED money Everyone lives on borrowed money! Some need to some choose to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Yes, we all do live with borrowings; Typically we take on debt - student debt, mortgages, car and finance loans etc from early adulthood. Most of us aim to pay these off by the time we reach retirement. Most of us hope to be debt free in late life and leave something (possibly in the form of the house) to our children No responsible person goes on through life continuously borrowing more and intending to die heavily in debt - expecting our children to repay it. Yet that is EXACTLY what we are doing with the national debt. The statistics are Government sourced, but they are generally accepted (by independent bodies) as broadly correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Everyone lives on borrowed money! Some need to some choose to! I don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I don't I don't now as I'm retired and past 60, but I have done in the past - and always planned to pay everything back before retirement, which fortunately was accomplished despite a few bumpy patches along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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