Smiler23 Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 What % pattern do folk class as perfect?... Obviously 100% if your on point is putting a bird in the bag but it isn't leaving much for error and 30% would be leaving a fairly open spread with opportunity to pass through it, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 Percentages are what the gun throws at different ranges with each choke and load. What you are looking for is a choke/load combination that throws a minimum pattern at your chosen range. Geese 75 pellets in 30" circle. Pheasant/Duck 150 pellets in 30" circle Partridge/Pigeon 180 pellets in 30" circle Woodcock/Snipe 210 pellets in 30" circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) All down to how many pellets .... I pattern my home brew shells and do penetration tests. I am happy with a 'mass' of #7 holes within a 24 inch circle from the full choke tubes in my 410 at 35yrds and after that it is up to me. Never bothered to count them. Edited August 28, 2017 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 What % pattern do folk class as perfect?... Obviously 100% if your on point is putting a bird in the bag but it isn't leaving much for error and 30% would be leaving a fairly open spread with opportunity to pass through it, Sadly, with a shotgun there's no such thing as perfect. The best we can do is to be reasonably sure of success. Obviously, we can't simply rely on the nominal dimension of a metal tube for this as choke is a performance and not said measurement. As far as I'm aware, there's only only one comprehensive report of a pattern test on here which can be found by searching, 'first attempt at pattern testing' on this sub-forum. It is, perhaps, unfortunate that the test involved a specific choke type which gave a slightly different performance from the norm - as it was supposedly designed to do - but this is of no great consequence. Have a look at the performance summary and the relationship between the percentages of the 20 and 30" circles - 41 and 65%. Everything else about this test is screaming full choke, but let's stay with the figures given. The pattern produced 186 pellets in the 30" circle with 118 in the central 20" which has an area of 314 sq ins. If we figure that that suits are quarry, then the remaining 68 pellets in an area of 393 sq ins does not. The 'norm' for a 3/4 choke would be 37.3% - 106 pellets in this case, but it will be realised that we're still short of density out at the full 30". In fact this is true for all degrees of choke except where a truly true cylinder barrel throws less than the conventional 40%. (The figure for the 20" with full choke is deemed to be 41.4%.) Consequently, the best option is to simply count the pellets in the central 20" circle when doing a pattern check. It is impossible to be specific because what is deemed reasonable is down to the individual shooter's conscience, but as a guide, then: Pheasant 58 Mallard 47 Partridge Teal and Woodcock 120 Pigeon 108 Snipe 200 Where there is an appreciable difference in size between the male and female of the species, then the figure for the smaller female is used. The percentage figures given apply to any range at which the overall 30" percentage applies. In the event that anyone sees any merit in the above, if asked, I'll give the 20" percentages for the remaining degrees of choke. However, it should be noted that as with all things shotgun, any findings are based on an average so it is inevitable that individually there will be some minor discrepencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 there is also an element here which sometimes people tend to forget: pattern is a bi-dimensional image of a 3D cluster to the expert eye it can help gauge pressure and speed of a certain shell but without proofing the shell; for the newbie is merely a picture of what is happening at a certain point (pattern plate) in a space of few tenths of a second Also, at what distance do you pattern? what choke? do you pattern to see if the shell perform as expected or to see the 'spread' at the distance you're expecting to shot? If you just want a picture of a perforated piece of paper then fine; if you want to extract some date than it's somewhat more complicated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 there is also an element here which sometimes people tend to forget: pattern is a bi-dimensional image of a 3D cluster to the expert eye it can help gauge pressure and speed of a certain shell but without proofing the shell; for the newbie is merely a picture of what is happening at a certain point (pattern plate) in a space of few tenths of a second Also, at what distance do you pattern? what choke? do you pattern to see if the shell perform as expected or to see the 'spread' at the distance you're expecting to shot? If you just want a picture of a perforated piece of paper then fine; if you want to extract some date than it's somewhat more complicated As it's all we've got to go by, why not make use of it. However, it's not all doom and gloom. At 30 metres the bulk of a pattern arrives with 10 milliseconds. A bird does not fly through the pattern, rather the pattern flies through the bird. In that 10ms, a pigeon travelling at 30 mph would travel some 5". So, if you've centred a correctly chosen patten accurately, then job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) Percentages are what the gun throws at different ranges with each choke and load. What you are looking for is a choke/load combination that throws a minimum pattern at your chosen range. Geese 75 pellets in 30" circle. Pheasant/Duck 150 pellets in 30" circle Partridge/Pigeon 180 pellets in 30" circle Woodcock/Snipe 210 pellets in 30" circle. Of course,those numbers are to an extent, personal preference. I'd love to always have 180 in the circle for pigeon, for example, but I'm quite happy with 140 and 120 will usually do the job, so for all the numbers you can get out of it, it still comes down to what works for the individual within a range of workable possibilities. (I've always thought Stonepark is particularly generous to himself in terms of pattern density, for example!) Edited August 28, 2017 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 This whole topic is largely academic as it only really relates to the minimum necessary pellet count at one's maximum selected range. Any cartridge/gun/ with some choke will suffice at the more usual ranges particularly when decoying pigeon. Although we're slightly at odds with some figures, the difference is small enough not to fall out with each other and therefore, I'm with Stonepark. As it happens,in line with one aspect of BASC's criteria, I'd be looking at c108 pellets - close to the above 120 - but in the central 20". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 As it's all we've got to go by, why not make use of it. However, it's not all doom and gloom. At 30 metres the bulk of a pattern arrives with 10 milliseconds. A bird does not fly through the pattern, rather the pattern flies through the bird. In that 10ms, a pigeon travelling at 30 mph would travel some 5". So, if you've centred a correctly chosen patten accurately, then job done. Completely agree! as i said people hwo've seen 100's of these can take a lot of info off a pattern plate. what i meant, is that the led column doesn't exactly trave lor reach the quarry as it's shown on the pattern plate but more like a wide string, and not all pellets hit the plate at the same time. I normally only pattern test the shells i use when i change components. Seeing the pattern makes me understand if the different components have produced any significant change (if any at all) without having to proof my loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) Well seeing as we're talking pattern plates. I done a little bit of testing today. Distance was 35 yards and was using a beretta DT11 fixed choke trap gun . Cartridge used was Eley superbs plastic wad 28 gram 7.5 Pattern plate size 30" Fist shot was bottom barrel (3/4 choke ) https://www.dropbox.com/s/15urixoj7gc5ei5/Photo%2028-08-2017%2C%2018%2000%2052.jpg?dl=0 Second shot was using both barrels ( 3/4 bottom full top ) at same point of aim . https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5gokzq8llr80px/Photo%2028-08-2017%2C%2018%2001%2029.jpg?dl=0 Edited August 28, 2017 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 Well seeing as we're talking pattern plates. I done a little bit of testing today. Distance was 35 yards and was using a beretta DT11 fixed choke trap gun . Cartridge used was Eley superbs plastic wad 28 gram 7.5 Pattern plate size 30" Fist shot was bottom barrel (3/4 choke ) https://www.dropbox.com/s/15urixoj7gc5ei5/Photo%2028-08-2017%2C%2018%2000%2052.jpg?dl=0 Second shot was using both barrels ( 3/4 bottom full top ) at same point of aim . https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5gokzq8llr80px/Photo%2028-08-2017%2C%2018%2001%2029.jpg?dl=0 Nothing wrong with the choking that I can see, but I think the lead is slightly too soft for the pressures generated by the cartridge judging by the number of welded/paired shot in the first photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) They have 5% ant with a MV of 1400 and an OV of 1050 Edited August 28, 2017 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 I will however be moving to an English 7 in the above cartridge for ABT and Trench , I do like me 7s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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