Getting a gundog trained

[ilovemyheckler]

Anyone trained their own dog and also sent one away for residential training?

i gave tesined two myself but don’t have time to train a third. I have bought a 6 month old part trained ess and thinking of sending her for residential training so I would appreciate the thoughts from people who have done both. Do you get the same “bond” with a dog who is sent away?

 

thanks

Edited October 13, 2018 by ilovemyheckler

[Mochastorm]

The bond with a dog can be hard to define.  There are many who have their dogs in the house, take them to work and are with them 24 hours a day. The dog will be referred to as their best mate. They have a bond.  There are those who keep them in a kennel and have about an hour in total together every day.  They have a bond. My own observations are that the kennelled dogs are often more easily trained.  I wouldn’t confuse supposed strength of the bond with tractability. If you are intent on sending away for training I wouldn’t worry too much about the bonding issue, but when you get the trained dog back home you will have to stay on top of the training.  You’ve trained two dogs previously, would it not be possible to train this one yourself.

[ilovemyheckler]

Thanks for the informative reply.

Yes I could train her myself but I don’t have the time. I work full time and I am picking up 2 - 3 times a week until January.

I wasn’t going to get another dog until February/March but this extremely well bred part trained dog came And i had to make a decision on taking her now or waiting, and I doubt i would have got such an opportunity had I waited.

My older dog is now 9 so I doubt she will be picking up much after this season so I need another for the start of the next shooting season

[Mochastorm]

I understand your position, not enough hours in the day.  I don’t know where or who you will use for training, but I assume as you are no beginner you will have a few sessions with dog and trainer while it’s away. I agree that you have to take this dog if it’s available now.  Awkward time, season starting, shorter days and longer working hours.  Hope all goes well and good luck with your new team member.

[Saltings]

in answer to your question bond no and if you are not taught to handle by the trainer the poor dog will loose confidence in you and wind you up and spaniels crave attention good or bad  not good      or  while beating / picking up this season take it for a walk on a lead let it watch everything going on will also steady up  maybe a retrieve at the end of the day you have all spring and summer to get it right for next season  even if you only do obedience until feb onwards nothing lost all the best 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Saltings

[Retsdon]

The usual problem with professionally trained dogs is that owners don't know how to catch things when they start to go wrong - which with any dog is almost a given at some point But you've trained two yourself already so that won't be an issue. Don't worry about the dog not working for you. He/she will work fine. I used to do a fair amount of buying and selling of novice,.half-trained, and trained dogs and in my experience it doesn't take them any time to adapt to new ownership. If you show a working dog work, he'll be your friend!

[Lloyd90]

On 19/10/2018 at 19:08, Retsdon said:

The usual problem with professionally trained dogs is that owners don't know how to catch things when they start to go wrong - which with any dog is almost a given at some point But you've trained two yourself already so that won't be an issue. Don't worry about the dog not working for you. He/she will work fine. I used to do a fair amount of buying and selling of novice,.half-trained, and trained dogs and in my experience it doesn't take them any time to adapt to new ownership. If you show a working dog work, he'll be your friend!

Suppose it depends on the standard you his first dogs, and whether he uses the same commands as the trainer. 

OP - make sure you and the trainer use the same commands etc - personally I find most of the enjoyment of my dog comes from training him myself and working it out. 

I’m very happy when I’ve been laying for foundations for a long time and then it all just seems to click  not sure it would be the same with a trained dog bought in 🤔

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

and whether he uses the same commands as the trainer. 

My old neighbour once bought a dog from North Wales that came with a cassette tape of Welsh commands!

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

not sure it would be the same with a trained dog bought in

Never had a problem with it, Lloyd. Back when I was among sheepdogs I'd occasionally buy trained dogs that, with a bit of polishing,  I thought had the potential to further develop into good trials dogs. Of course, it's impossible to know if any dog might not have worked better had you trained it yourself from scratch, but a working dog  - in my experience anyway - will pretty much work for anyone competent. The proof of that I suppose is that some of the really top sheepdog handlers  - at least when I was into training and trialling dogs - nearly always bought  their dogs ready trained. That way they could see what they were getting without having to wait two years or more for a dog to reach its potential.

[Lloyd90]

58 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Never had a problem with it, Lloyd. Back when I was among sheepdogs I'd occasionally buy trained dogs that, with a bit of polishing,  I thought had the potential to further develop into good trials dogs. Of course, it's impossible to know if any dog might not have worked better had you trained it yourself from scratch, but a working dog  - in my experience anyway - will pretty much work for anyone competent. The proof of that I suppose is that some of the really top sheepdog handlers  - at least when I was into training and trialling dogs - nearly always bought  their dogs ready trained. That way they could see what they were getting without having to wait two years or more for a dog to reach its potential.

Ai I suppose - I know some lads who have great spaniels but just aren’t winning, yet they sell them on to another trailer and they start getting placed and winning awards with the different owner. 

I know some lads who will keep a few pups back to see which they prefer then sell off the excess when older. 

One bloke told me he will sell them to shooting homes but not trial homes incase it comes back to be a winner and beats his own dogs later on. 

[Retsdon]

33 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

One bloke told me he will sell them to shooting homes but not trial homes incase it comes back to be a winner and beats his own dogs later on. 

I can't really comment on this because I never competed in gundog trials or trained a gundog for competition. But with collies it"s generally not that hard to pick out potentially winning dogs quite early in their development. And these dogs, even when not particularly far on, will command a considerably higher price than a dog that"s probably going to top out as an all round farm dog.

So if gundogs are the same, your man is possibly doing himself down in the pocket. He should have more faith in his handling abilities!!!

[Lloyd90]

9 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I can't really comment on this because I never competed in gundog trials or trained a gundog for competition. But with collies it"s generally not that hard to pick out potentially winning dogs quite early in their development. And these dogs, even when not particularly far on, will command a considerably higher price than a dog that"s probably going to top out as an all round farm dog.

So if gundogs are the same, your man is possibly doing himself down in the pocket. He should have more faith in his handling abilities!!!

I’ve seen some collies go for silly money when they’re going to win those competitions. 

Not seen many gundogs go for anywhere near. 

Maybe the market just isn’t as strong so not worth that 🤔

[Retsdon]

45 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I’ve seen some collies go for silly money when they’re going to win those competitions. 

It's not just about the competitive side though. Generally, the very good trials dogs are also superb working dogs, and make your life SO much easier around livestock. Get on an open hill and try gathering up ewes with twins from among the other sheep, and then driving a dozen of them, with their lambs, the best part of a mile through other sheep to move them to lowground pasture. Without two good dogs it simply can't be done at any price. You'd have to bring the whole lot in and pen them to sort. It would take all day.

People don't think twice about paying tens of thousands for a bit of machinery to do  sn essential job. For a shepherd his dog is an essential multi-tasking machine who is also a great companion. Why wouldn't he pay or ask good money for it?

Edited October 25, 2018 by Retsdon

[Lloyd90]

27 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

It's not just about the competitive side though. Generally, the very good trials dogs are also superb working dogs, and make your life SO much easier around livestock. Get on an open hill and try gathering up ewes with twins from among the other sheep, and then driving a dozen of them, with their lambs, the best part of a mile through other sheep to move them to lowground pasture. Without two good dogs it simply can't be done at any price. You'd have to bring the whole lot in and pen them to sort. It would take all day.

People don't think twice about paying tens of thousands for a bit of machinery to do  sn essential job. For a shepherd his dog is an essential multi-tasking machine who is also a great companion. Why wouldn't he pay or ask good money for it?

 

Ai agree with you mate just recently though a mate of mine who rents a room off me has driven back to Ireland, with dogs for his boss. 

On one of the trips his boss paid over 16k for the dog and another dog was over 20k. 

The bloke ain’t short of a few bob owns a huge company operating all over the U.K. but sent the dogs back for family back home. 

 

I just say ive just never seen a gundog go for that sort of money. 

[Retsdon]

3 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

On one of the trips his boss paid over 16k for the dog and another dog was over 20k. 

Good gosh - is that what they go for these days?!? This merits further investigation. Thanks....

[scobydog]

53 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Good gosh - is that what they go for these days?!? This merits further investigation. Thanks....

Retsdon, 10k plus is getting more and more common for the best sheepdogs these days, farm we shoot over, his new dog was 9k,  he says it is the best dog he's ever had.

[scotslad]

There is a sheepdog sale near me, 1 old timer who always has good dogs goes down for a laugh at these idiots paying silly money for poor collies he reckons the by time dog has ran out bidding is often up around 1000-1500 quid he's then seen the dog grab hold of the sheep and all sorts, bidding slows down then thou but too late for someone.

 

Like gundogs i wouldn't say all trailing dogs make good shep dogs i know many shepherds who call the sheep dog trialling boys for everything for ruining collie breeding.

there is a difference working with quads etc.

Just as a lot of FT trained dogs are not ideal on a shot day either, infact most shoots in my area won't entertain most of the local FT trainers.

 

I have heard of odd gundogs selling for 5-10K but not that often really.

 

For the OP the main thing is to get a few lessons of ur trainer wither on ur own and with ur dog, and go back a couple of times after just to make sure ur not letting things slip.

 

Seen loads of very well trained dogs riuned by there owners, go back to trainer a within weeks or even days its back up to standard again but goes back and turns wild again, most dgs will always push boundries and know wot they can get away with with different handlers

[Lloyd90]

7 minutes ago, scotslad said:

 

Seen loads of very well trained dogs riuned by there owners, go back to trainer a within weeks or even days its back up to standard again but goes back and turns wild again, most dgs will always push boundries and know wot they can get away with with different handlers

Ai that's always going to be a problem.

People would be better off spending their money going to a top trainer and learning how to get their dog up to the standard they want. That way when things start to slip they are able to get them back without sending them back off for training. 

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Good gosh - is that what they go for these days?!? This merits further investigation. Thanks....

It's all about finding someone willing to pay that much I reckon! 

I have heard of lurcher boys paying £5-10k for a top coursing dog. Especially when some of those Saluki's started coming over.

Then my uncle breeds birds of prey out in Dubai. If they get a pure white they keep it back to keep breeding, peregrine's and Gyr falcons. I remember visiting and entire convoys of people would arrive to watch the birds for a few minutes before off they went. 

[scotslad]

1 lady i now trained a really decent lab for a local toff, trained to a very decent working/peg standard.

Anyway that toff opens the door in the morning and the lab has a free run, open garden with no fences surrounding woods full of rabbits/game.

And he wonders why its doesn't behave for him on a shoot day???

Now whe it goes back to her it doesn't even attempt to misbehave, u wouldn't think it was the same dog.

 

On about the launguage thing i know an itialian who bought an expensive dog years ago, after 1st shoot (obviously never done any training ater getting it) phoned up the trainer moaning about how useless it was,, trainer came down and found he was givinghis commands in itailian to it!!!

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, scotslad said:

1 lady i now trained a really decent lab for a local toff, trained to a very decent working/peg standard.

Anyway that toff opens the door in the morning and the lab has a free run, open garden with no fences surrounding woods full of rabbits/game.

And he wonders why its doesn't behave for him on a shoot day???

Now whe it goes back to her it doesn't even attempt to misbehave, u wouldn't think it was the same dog.

 

On about the launguage thing i know an itialian who bought an expensive dog years ago, after 1st shoot (obviously never done any training ater getting it) phoned up the trainer moaning about how useless it was,, trainer came down and found he was givinghis commands in itailian to it!!!

Don't rock the boat. It's almost the perfect business model. You train them, they un-train them and bring them back for more training. 

 

Almost as funny as that bloke on here who used to sell people homing pigeons when he was a kid. They'd fly home that same day and he'd sell them again the next 😂

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, scobydog said:

Retsdon, 10k plus is getting more and more common for the best sheepdogs these days, farm we shoot over, his new dog was 9k,  he says it is the best dog he's ever had.

Well, back in the 80s at a time when farmland was £800 an acre a reasonable dog was north of £1000, and a top dog maybe £3000 so I suppose the numbers add up. 

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, scotslad said:

Like gundogs i wouldn't say all trailing dogs make good shep dogs i know many shepherds who call the sheep dog trialling boys for everything for ruining collie breeding.

You're right that there are winning trial dogs that are useless - the issue being that babying a little packet of half a dozen skittish sheep around a small course is a very, very long way from practical farm work ....and probably far too many of them have found their way onto stud books. But I still maintain that the genuinely good dogs can do it all. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Retsdon

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, scotslad said:

Seen loads of very well trained dogs riuned by there owners, go back to trainer a within weeks or even days its back up to standard again but goes back and turns wild again

I knew a lad that every year would buy a new trained dog from North Wales to run in trials in Scotland,  and every year someone in Scotland would pick up a very good dog for half the money it had cost four months earlier!

[scotslad]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

You're right that there are winning trial dogs that are useless - the issue being that babying a little packet of half a dozen skittish sheep around a small course is a very, very long way from practical farm work ....and probably far too many of them have found their way onto stud books. But I still maintain that the genuinely good dogs can do it all. 

 

Definately, for me the probelm is FTing has become so specialised now and standards so high that dogs are elimanted for tiny things that aren't really an issue for a working dog, or in many cases actually benefical in a workng dog in some circumstances.

To many folk doing FT (both gundog and sheep) that have no idea about actually working them in the real world and just hobby or pro train purely for FT's

When FT's began it was a competion meant to demonstrate the best workng dogs but sadly now not really the case anymore

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

I knew a lad that every year would buy a new trained dog from North Wales to run in trials in Scotland,  and every year someone in Scotland would pick up a very good dog for half the money it had cost four months earlier!

I can believe that,give me a shout next time there heading up 😀

[Retsdon]

17 hours ago, scotslad said:

he's then seen the dog grab hold of the sheep and all sorts,

Well, not necessarily a bad thing. Sheep, when they see a dog  regularly, will soon find out one that baulks if they stand their ground, so you actually want a dog that'll come in and take a hold when you tell it to. It's where and when they take a hold that's the thing. Unless he's very young or green I'd definitely avoid a dog that dives in for a bite as the sheep are going away from him because in my experience it's a weak dog's trait. But a dog that refuses to give ground and will grab a hold of the nose to stop an animal running over him or getting past is a different matter altogether. My kind of dog!!