Rewulf Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 I suppose you saw the little bit of gunboat diplomacy between the Russians and Ukrainians over the weekend ? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46340283 Im not going to take sides in this, although it does appear the Russians were pretty heavy handed. It also transpires it might have been in retaliation for a not much reported incident where Ukraine interned a Russian fishing boat.http://www.stalkerzone.org/ukraine-groundlessly-seized-a-russian-fishing-vessel-in-the-sea-of-azov/https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/russian-fishing-vessel-nord-detained-in-ukraine-to-be-put-up-for-auction.html Anyway to cut through the hype.Russian authorities spotted 3 small military vessels about to enter the Kerch strait (which it controls) apparently without authorisation (which is requires as per agreement) and blocked the straight with a tanker. It appears that they tried to squeeze or push through , despite commands to desist. Western media reports it as a pretty much unprovoked armed attack by Russia. Anyway, the troubling thing about it is this. The Ukrainian government said virtually immediately that it might need to impose martial law ? It has now run it through parliament and implemented this, along with other 'emergency measures' Does this have anything to do with an impending Ukrainian election, where the approval rating of the sitting president is at an all time low? Many observers are saying this is an attempt to sway the elections , or at least delay them, using the Kerch incident as a basis, an incident some believe was staged for western eyes by Ukrainian intelligence. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46352367 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 Not looking very good for the 24 Ukrainian sailors about to be in court on trumped up charges! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said: Not looking very good for the 24 Ukrainian sailors about to be in court on trumped up charges! Theyll be fine, just pawns in a game methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: I suppose you saw the little bit of gunboat diplomacy between the Russians and Ukrainians over the weekend ? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46340283 Im not going to take sides in this, although it does appear the Russians were pretty heavy handed. It also transpires it might have been in retaliation for a not much reported incident where Ukraine interned a Russian fishing boat.http://www.stalkerzone.org/ukraine-groundlessly-seized-a-russian-fishing-vessel-in-the-sea-of-azov/https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/russian-fishing-vessel-nord-detained-in-ukraine-to-be-put-up-for-auction.html Anyway to cut through the hype.Russian authorities spotted 3 small military vessels about to enter the Kerch strait (which it controls) apparently without authorisation (which is requires as per agreement) and blocked the straight with a tanker. It appears that they tried to squeeze or push through , despite commands to desist. Western media reports it as a pretty much unprovoked armed attack by Russia. Anyway, the troubling thing about it is this. The Ukrainian government said virtually immediately that it might need to impose martial law ? It has now run it through parliament and implemented this, along with other 'emergency measures' Does this have anything to do with an impending Ukrainian election, where the approval rating of the sitting president is at an all time low? Many observers are saying this is an attempt to sway the elections , or at least delay them, using the Kerch incident as a basis, an incident some believe was staged for western eyes by Ukrainian intelligence. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46352367 2 small military vessels, and a tug, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 hour ago, pinfireman said: 2 small military vessels, and a tug, https://goo.gl/images/up96Y8 Looks like a naval tug to me . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Rewulf said: https://goo.gl/images/up96Y8 Looks like a naval tug to me . Didn,t realise shipping was your field of expertise? I have a copy of Janes Fighting ships, I,ll check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 34 minutes ago, pinfireman said: Didn,t realise shipping was your field of expertise? I have a copy of Janes Fighting ships, I,ll check it out. I have many fields of expertise, many of them completely useless 😂 But I would say when a ship has been painted grey, and hangs out with ships that are armed, it is a safe bet it's a navy ship ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Ukraine's president Poroshenko has said Russian tanks are massing on his borders, and requests Western 'help' . https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-putting-tanks-on-border-11567237 Western leader's really aren't buying into it , and have begun to realise they backed a turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 In the long term we (the rest of the world) will capitulate and Russia under Putin will grow again. Can nobody in power see how this is going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Ukraine has a significant percentage of its population that consider themselves to be ethnic Russians. They migrated into Ukraine in numbers after WW2 because it was "better" there than Russia and the Ukrainians could not stop them under Communist rule.. If you were looking for an example of the effect of unregulated migration on the social balance Ukraine would be a text book case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: In the long term we (the rest of the world) will capitulate and Russia under Putin will grow again. Can nobody in power see how this is going? Too busy buying cheap Russian gas. Another reason Ukraines thrown its toys out, Nordstream pipeline to Germany, completely bypasses Ukraine, so they cant charge a tariff on it. Theyve told Germany to cancel it, Krauts gave em the finger. 32 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Ukraine has a significant percentage of its population that consider themselves to be ethnic Russians. They migrated into Ukraine in numbers after WW2 because it was "better" there than Russia and the Ukrainians could not stop them under Communist rule.. If you were looking for an example of the effect of unregulated migration on the social balance Ukraine would be a text book case. Ive got some friends from Lithuania and from Latvia, they were born there, and their parents were born there, but they will tell you quite firmly that they are Russian. We hear of aggressive colonisation of bordering lands by Russians over the past 100 or so years, there may even be some truth to this. But is that really the case, there is always going to be cross border intermingling of peoples, always has been. Ukraine is a classic example, but not how you think, Ukraine is a country in its own right now, but for most of known history , it was just a region, dominated by whatever neighbour was most powerful at the time, Poland, the Austro Hungarian empire, Russia. All this nationalistic fervour that seems to be gripping Ukraine , with them stating that the 'people' will not be dictated to by Russia, whilst trying to drag anyone who will listen to it into an open conflict no one wants. The people of Ukraine are diverse mix , to some extent or other, the fact that they now live in a country called Ukraine doesnt really mean anything, some will call themselves Ukrainians , some will refer to themselves as Russians or something else. Making a conflict out of it is pointless. If you think I am over simplifying the issue, look at other borders in Europe, the Swiss , Alsace, Basque country, loads of examples of identity clashes. 150 years ago Germany didnt exist ! The EU , how many times have you heard of people referring to themselves as EU citizens ? Even though there is no such country ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 They are all slaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 minute ago, oowee said: They are all slaves. Do you mean Slavs ? Not really accurate though, many Ukrainians are blond , blue eyed, not a typical Slav look . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 They all speak a slavik language from which is derived the word slavi or slave. My wife speaks several slavic languages including Russian i tell her she is basically a slave at which point she will hit me. Slavs can have all sorts of skin tones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Mmm..https://www.rbth.com/arts/history/2017/07/17/myths-of-russian-history-does-the-word-slavs-derive-from-the-word-slave_804967 Also . Sporoi (Greek: Σπόροι) or Spori was according to Eastern Roman scholar Procopius (500–560) the old name of the Antes and Sclaveni, two Early Slavic branches. Im not surprised your wife hits you ! To try to bunch together all the ethnicities of a root 'Slavic' language is like saying all the people who live in the UK are ethnic English , because they speak English ? People from Northern Europe can be blond and blue eyed , or dark haired and brown eyed. I would say that the Skandi gene is strong in certain areas due to Norse expansionism and strong genes. Whilst the Turkic gene prevails in others, like Italy and Spain, or Greece, due to Islamic expansionism. Not slaves, any more than any other European group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Another reason for the post WW2 influx of Russians into Ukraine was the forced expulsion of Ukranian Volksdeutsch, who had been in Ukraine since Catherine the Great's time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted December 3, 2018 Report Share Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) On 30/11/2018 at 10:47, Rewulf said: Too busy buying cheap Russian gas. Another reason Ukraines thrown its toys out, Nordstream pipeline to Germany, completely bypasses Ukraine, so they cant charge a tariff on it. Theyve told Germany to cancel it, Krauts gave em the finger. Ive got some friends from Lithuania and from Latvia, they were born there, and their parents were born there, but they will tell you quite firmly that they are Russian. We hear of aggressive colonisation of bordering lands by Russians over the past 100 or so years, there may even be some truth to this. But is that really the case, there is always going to be cross border intermingling of peoples, always has been. Ukraine is a classic example, but not how you think, Ukraine is a country in its own right now, but for most of known history , it was just a region, dominated by whatever neighbour was most powerful at the time, Poland, the Austro Hungarian empire, Russia. All this nationalistic fervour that seems to be gripping Ukraine , with them stating that the 'people' will not be dictated to by Russia, whilst trying to drag anyone who will listen to it into an open conflict no one wants. The people of Ukraine are diverse mix , to some extent or other, the fact that they now live in a country called Ukraine doesnt really mean anything, some will call themselves Ukrainians , some will refer to themselves as Russians or something else. Making a conflict out of it is pointless. If you think I am over simplifying the issue, look at other borders in Europe, the Swiss , Alsace, Basque country, loads of examples of identity clashes. 150 years ago Germany didnt exist ! The EU , how many times have you heard of people referring to themselves as EU citizens ? Even though there is no such country ? Ukraine has a very fertile soil and grows a lot of wheat which is exported creating a comparatively wealthy country by former Communist standards. The Russians want a piece of that, and are trying to muscle in using paramilitaries. Migration has produced a civil war with people getting killed and whole villages being ethnically cleansed, so yes, you are over simplifying it. Edited December 3, 2018 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted December 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Ukraine has a very fertile soil and grows a lot of wheat which is exported creating a comparatively wealthy country by former Communist standards. The Russians want a piece of that, and are trying to muscle in. Migration has produced a civil war with people getting killed and whole villages being ethnically cleansed, so yes, you are over simplifying it. Ethnic cleansing ? A bit dramatic ! There are more ethnic Russians in Crimea than any other demographic, has been for hundreds of years, you remember the Crimean war, when Britain and France went to help the Ottomans (You know , the ones that did plenty of ethnic cleansing themselves before and afterwards) and kept on going into Crimea, which was part of Russia ? Migration hasnt produced a civil war, the western part (with some gentle nudges from the US) decided they wanted closer integration with the EU and NATO, the eastern part and Crimea , werent happy with this , and neither was Russia, it broke an agreement with NATO not to encroach further on Russias borders, and threatened their naval base at Sevastopol , it limited the rights of Russian speaking Ukrainians (and still does) But you think its about wheat !? Dont believe the hype, would you be OK if Russia decided to rent some land off southern Ireland to build an air and naval base ? Because thats what Ukraine were , and are, talking about, renting land to NATO to build bases on, right next to the Russian border. In strategic terms , thats known as a provocation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted December 3, 2018 Report Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Vince Green said: Ukraine has a very fertile soil and grows a lot of wheat which is exported creating a comparatively wealthy country by former Communist standards. The Russians want a piece of that, and are trying to muscle in using paramilitaries. Migration has produced a civil war with people getting killed and whole villages being ethnically cleansed, so yes, you are over simplifying it. Not only very fertile but also large areas of ground. Much of the farming is ancient and lacks capital investment. There was a recent program to combine Western funding (US and UK) with collective ownership's to mechanise the way that the farming works, is owned and controlled. A friend of mine was the VP for International Co-operation in the Ukrain Chamber, and I worked on how the program might be put together. It was massively complex with opaque ownership issues, many of which at that time were Russian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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