Glenshooter Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 Firstly, hello from me. I've been shooting for many years, mainly service rifle, target rifle and rimfire. Had my shotgun since my dad bought it for me to motivate me to work hard for my o levels - over 30 yrs ago!!! My 13 yr old lad is now getting into clay shooting, has had about 6 lessons and is shortly starting competitions. I bought him a new Silver Pigeon 111 20g last year, hoping that he would get a good few years use out of it. (Yes, it has been expensive but he was very ill last year and I have happy to support him shooting since he can no longer play some other sports.) However, shooting school had just told me that he really needs a 12g now! 1) What sort of trade in could you expect from an absolutely mint 20G Silver Pigeon 111 m/c that cost around £1,400 and is less than a year old and has shot less than 500 cts? 2) Does it really matter of we go for a Browning 525 say, Silver Pigeon Beretta or Miroku? Shop was trying to tell me that the stocks are higher on some brands than others? 3) Should I really believe that a small sized 13 yr old has grown out of a 20G? Apparently it is to do with him "waving" the lighter gun too much and being steadier with the heavier 12g? I can't really afford to keep the 20g, as a second gun for game shooting. Thanks in advance, any advice grateful received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john faul Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 i started shooting at 11 with a 12g the extra bit of weight i was told stopped me russhing the shot . i now have a mirouku 38 trap with an adjustable stock i shoot everything with it from DTL to vermin and i really like i would advise you to get him a gun with an adjustable stock so he will not grow out of the gun as i have found . as he gets bigger he can adjust the stock to suit himself regards john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibby Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 If he has shot with a Beretta for some time i wouldn't really wander away from their line of guns. I find that being a Beretta shooter i do not get on as well with Brownings for example, so keep that in mind. Beretta also do light versions of their guns, so it may not be as bigger jump in to 12g level. Gibby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted August 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 Thanks folks so far. TBH, he has mainly used the school's guns for most of his shooting so the Beretta is not really his "main" gun. What I am trying to balance is keeping the 20g or taking the hit and going for a 12. Mine is a s/s so not really comparable. What we plan to do at the moment is to let him shoot 2 rounds of sporting one week with his 20 and the following weekend, borrow the club 12b and see how he fares. Not scientifc but better than nothing. Any other comments would be most welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 Go for the 12 bore but in my opinion keep away from the "light" guns....these are mainly game guns for carrying around the field and if used a lot on clays the recoil would get to him eventually.... but the adjustable stock seems a good idea although get it proffesionally fitted and once you have DONT muck about with it..... i dont think i have seen a lot of adjustable berettas apart from the 682 gold E browning do the xs as an adjustable.....depends on how much your planning to spend?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted August 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 The adjustable that I saw was a Miroku, I think. Wasn't a pretty sight although I see the logic. Would go to about £1,500 - depending on what I can get for the Silver Pigeon 3. Does £900 seem right as a trade in for a mint gun that is sold for £1400 and has only had a few 100 cts through it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 I'd have thought it would fetch a little more than that. I was recently offered 800 against my 686 (£1000 new a year ago, not mint). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 i agree with pin...its worth more than that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted August 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Thanks guys I got a bit of a hard life story from the school/dealer , (I will have to accept a lower price because of having to reapply VAT etc etc), so good to have your opinion. While we could keep the 20 for field use - it's a shed load of money to have tied up in a rarely used gun. OTOH, if I was going to lose about £500 on a part exchange, the money would presumably buy me a reasonable second hand 12b and I would have 2 guns instead of one. Now, that makes sense!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 I'd be looking for the right side of £1050 for that private sale, and significantly more in a trade in (depending on what it was against) Have a look on guntrader for an idea of what they are going for.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted August 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Following your comments and inspiration, here's how I am thinking - (assuming the trade in value offered so far) Options Part exchange 20g for new similar 12g. With a £900 trade in against new cost of say, £1,450 = I pay £550. Result one new 12G Buy second hand 12 G for £550. Additional cost = £550. Result one (as) new 20g (that I currently have) and a usable 12G. Seems like it's obvious what I should do!! Thanks again for the inspiration! However, if I can get more for as a trade in, this will all change! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 dont let them Rip you off - they are just trying it on and trying to get you to buy from them as they are teaching your son, go elsewere to price up a gun, you should get a better trade in value than £900 for your pigeon against a £1500 new gun!!!, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 I'm not an RFD or that well versed in margins that RFD's can make on various guns, however I know I have come nowhere near the "full" retail price of any of my guns. On a brand new gun marked up retail @ £1500 with that to trade I would expect you'd be paying something in the region of 250-300 max, nothing like 550 mate. What do the others think, Mungler you have bought and sold more guns than most RFD's, your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 On a brand new gun marked up retail @ £1500 with that to trade I would expect you'd be paying something in the region of 250-300 max, nothing like 550 mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter-peter Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Thanks folks so far. TBH, he has mainly used the school's guns for most of his shooting so the Beretta is not really his "main" gun. What I am trying to balance is keeping the 20g or taking the hit and going for a 12. Mine is a s/s so not really comparable. What we plan to do at the moment is to let him shoot 2 rounds of sporting one week with his 20 and the following weekend, borrow the club 12b and see how he fares. Not scientifc but better than nothing. Any other comments would be most welcome. its an idea glen s but dont forget. borrowing a 12 for 1 shoot won't answer your question it will shoot totally different to his 20. unless the school has a gun that fits him perfect of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted August 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Thanks again folks The £1,500 was a guess at the new "buying" price - not the r. retail price. My options are not limited to the school shop and thanks to you all for confirming that the £900 was somewhat on the low side. Gives me more "ammo" (excuse pun) to negotiate with the shop where I bought the gun. If I do go the additional gun route, the 12b will be for clays and the 20b will be for field shooting. He transfers between guns pretty well and I have been impressed at the standard of tution - but not so impressed that I am going to accept silly prices!! Thanks again for being so helpful to my first posting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby t Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 as someone who has been in your sons situation between a 12 and a 20 fairly recently i started at 12 with a 12b sXs and t hen got a 20 now 6 years later im still with the 20 and have been told its too small, m advice if it fits its not too small i can see why he'd say the barrels are too small and therefore whippy, but it may suit your sons style my 20 has 30" barrels and is a tad on the heavy side but it suits my style of shooting, i would be very surprised if he shot better with the 12 at his age. hope this may help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 i shot with a 20b SxS for 12 years and i really had to knock it on the head in the end. it was fine for the most part, but in the end i could not get on with it. one of lifes mysterys, although i do get a bad back these days and this causes my shoulders to drop oout of alignment on one side - contributery? who knows?! i changed for a 12b O/U and have shot fine with it ever since. thats not the point though. i dont contribute the loss of form with the 20b to be the size/weight of the gun, i think if it fits well then any decent shooter can get on fine with a 20b. somehow i don't buy it, but thats me. in reality, your son will no doubt get a 12b and be very content with it for years to come if its a berreta and this is a decent route. i think the gun shop are trying it on, its worth more than that and i think you ought to try a private sale or at least someone that will give you a sensible trade in. a larger gun retialer that deals with a higher volume of giuns, will likely give you a better price; they simply have the turnover to be prepared to do a sensible deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 glenn, I'm always on the wary of people 'playing the game'. It may be that your son needs a 12 because his current gun doesn't fit him. It could also be that they think they see an easy mark. I don't know. The best thing you can do though is shop around and get the best price for your gun. Negotiate the price for the new gun first. Get it in writing. Then see what they will give you on the trade in. If it works for you then go for it. More than likely you can sell it outright for more. About the 12 vs 20 and power, a 1 oz load from a 12 moving at 1300 fps hits just the same as a 1 oz load from a 12 moving at 1300 fps. Both are more than adequate for breaking birds at 45 yd. thanks, rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Rick - quite agree, the killing power is the same for each gun with the same load. hence my comments about being able to shoot just as well with either. a decent shooter will shoot as well with any gun that fits correctly, in the same way that a decent driver can get in nay car and drive it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby t Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 perhaps a worthwile route would be to go and get the gun fitted by a gunsmith i know your son will grow quickly but perhaps a adjustable comb for around £100 will make it fit him and thus kill more birds, i agree with the statement that the fire power is the same however, i must admit clays are a damn sight easier to break with a 12 even wiht the smae amount of lead in the cartdridge. just my personal view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Country_est Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Glenn, Dont know your finacial situation, or the size of your boy, or to what level he is hoping to shoot, but remember that at 13 he probably still has a lot of growing in him. Started me lad off on a 12 auto 2 years ago when he was 12yrs, he has now grown another 6" (at least) and is currently 6ft 1" and has out grown me and has a gun of his own that I can use at a stretch, but suits him well at the moment. So it your lad is a big ****** like mine then a 12 will be ok, if he is a little un then a shorter stocked gun in the £1000's may be a little difficult to shift as he grows. Just some of my thoughts Trev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted August 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Thanks yet again to you all for your replies and advice. All useful points. He was on a young shots day last week and tried a 12b and it appeared that his scores improved. However, he is a bit of a short *** - he had been very ill for most of last year and this has meant that his height it in the lower quartile for his age. I will see him using both guns for myself and take a decision based on that. My present thinking is to try other places for deals but probably the most prudent thing to do is to keep the little 20 for game shooting and get another 12b o/u for knocking about at the shooting ground. And besides, I can use it too and we don't have to be precious about the odd knock and scratch! I do look at bit of a plonker using my s/s on a sporting shoot! Thanks again for all your inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_colt Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Have you considered a semi-auto? I cannot shoot a 12b OU due to the recoil's long term effect on my neck and shoulders. Had no problem with a semi shooting heavier loads and you would be surprised at what you can get for your money. The only drawback is semis are still not really welcome on driven game shoots; but apart from that you can pretty much use them for everything. mr_colt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted September 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2007 Hi Mr Colt ref your suggestion about an auto. This was suggested before we even bought the 20g. Who knows, it may be the answer - except I am not very fond on autos. If we can try him with one, that would be great. He did try one a few years ago but it was massively too big for him - but that was then. . Thanks again for all your suggestions. It has been really helpful hearing all the varying views Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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