.410 Brass & Alliant 410 powder

[Windswept]

Evening all, this is my first post so be gentle. I have a fair bit of rifle & pistol loading experience but little shotgun.

I fancied trying the MagTech brass .410 cases and sorted out the appropriate .430 nitro card, wads and .450 overshot card etc. I don't have specific load data so chose a starting powder level by looking at the data for the plastic cases on the Alliant site.

The problem is they often don't fire or they don't fire well. I'm aware of the need to compress the powder and to glue in the overshot card (using Duco Cement) but even then they are a bit hit and miss, and when they do fire they leave a lot of fouling in the barrel.

Does anyone use Alliant .410 in brass cases and if so does it work? Any advice on what else to try?

I get better results if I lightly roll crimp the brass case but, long term, I'd rather not do this. I note the actual internal measurement listed for the cases is .433 and I don't know if a nitro card wider than .430 would help?

Does anyone know where I can source load data specific to the MagTech .410 cases? Should I be using slightly more powder than a plastic case? Would I be better of with a different powder?

[Old farrier]

Haven’t got a clue 

anyway welcome and best of luck with your reloding 👍😊

[sitsinhedges]

Using brass for 410 always seems like hard work to me. There's no data and components are harder to get. Just use plastic imo.

[hafod]

Be carefull

You'll have a hell of a job to buy primers for them if i remember rightly they need large pistol primers to prime mind

unless you got a slot on your ticket for a calibre that uses pistol primers then you.ll be fine 

they wont sell them to you even though its for a shotun case they can however  be converted quite easily to fire 209 size primers

but a disclaimer i.m not responsible for someone else's stupidity here mind 

THE 209 PRIMER CONVERSION IS NOT RECOMENDED FOR USE WITH SMOKELESS POWDER LOADS PERIOD

ONLY BLACK POWDER LOADS CAN BE LOADED IN CONVERTED BRASS CASES

Please take note for safety.s sake 

 

[saddler]

BEST resource for 410 data is a dedicated forum

FOUR TEN ORG UK

Also look at powders like 2400 - but check the forum as everything you are doing has already been covered

3 hours ago, sitsinhedges said:

Using brass for 410 always seems like hard work to me. There's no data and components are harder to get. Just use plastic imo.

....of course there isn't. None... 🤣

[Windswept]

Thanks for the welcome and replies. Yes, brass cartridges do seem a bit more difficult than plastic but that's half the appeal.

I have no problem at all sourcing primers for the brass cartridges.

I've used the four ten site a fair bit but they don't seem to have a forum or any specific brass cartridge data, unless I've missed it.

2400 was another choice and it seems SP3 might be another but it would be useful to know if the powder is at fault or something else such as too small a nitro card.

[saddler]

First thing I'd try is a different brand of primer

I'd also try a slightly wider card/wad - you are aiming for a good tight fit

Edited August 24, 2020 by saddler

[hafod]

I personally wouldnt reload 410 brass cases with any smokeless loads black powder yes not a problem 

I reload for the 410 but i.d have thought there would be a hell of a difference pressure wise between a plastic and brass 410 case

balloon head primer pockets on magtec brass cases be carefull

i know a bit about magtec brass use to convert the 24 bore brass cases to 577/450 martini cases

Untill you split one of those cases cross sectional wise on a bandsaw do you realise how thin that brass really is but that's just my opinion  

[Windswept]

1 minute ago, hafod said:

I personally wouldnt reload 410 brass cases with any smokeless loads black powder yes not a problem

Why is that? Not arguing, but curious. Plenty of people seem to load .410 in brass and the comments I've seen suggest they should cope better than plastic. However, the description of the MagTech cases does say for use with black powder.

On the BP note, could you use something like Pyrodex or 777?

[saddler]

My 410 loads are made with .303 cases, so strong enough & no issues with balloon head bases/primer pockets

[hafod]

1 hour ago, Windswept said:

Why is that? Not arguing, but curious. Plenty of people seem to load .410 in brass and the comments I've seen suggest they should cope better than plastic. However, the description of the MagTech cases does say for use with black powder.

On the BP note, could you use something like Pyrodex or 777?

Converted 303 brass now different thing all together its thicker brass its designed for smokeless loads 

but magtec brass cases are really to thin In my opinion for smokeless loads my advise is don't do it 

yes pyrodex or black powder not a problem magtec brass is actually manufactured for blackpower cowboy silhouette shooting matches

and yes it does say for loading black powder only on the box well the last 5 boxes i bought did anyway 

Even when 24 bore magtec brass cases are reformed into 577/450 martini henry there is a school of thought that says use reduced loads of black powder in these reformed swaged cases

those cases when filled to just below the case neck can hold in the region of between 100 to 120 grains of some brands of black powder under a 500 grain 470 diameter slug in a mk 4 long lever rifle 

So as you can imagine when you fire that little lot it has the potential to shake your fillings out belive me

and if your firing a mk 1 m/h and you happened to forget and wraped your thumb around the wrist of that stock instead of that checkered thumb rest at the rear of the action 

boy oh boy when she barks she gives you a love bite and half she really does lol 

Edited August 24, 2020 by hafod

[hafod]

Please don't think I'm having a go at you I'm not I think it's great that you posted your question I really do 

you.ll get good advise.from people that know a hell of a lot more than me on here that's for sure cookoff if you want chime in.

you got three options in this game my friend and they are

No1 ask and listen

No2  live to enjoy your hobby

No3 ignore and take a walk with  the grim reaper

they say ignorance is bliss don't become a static if you have any doubts ask that's what this forum is for 

strong words I know but if in doubt shout someone will always answer with good advise

I hope i havent come accros as a know it all i.m no expert i dont qualify for the capital E in the word expert but i hope i was of some help at lest any way good luck with the loading 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by hafod

[hafod]

William greener in 1894 I think it was right at the very birth of the smokeless powder era showed that even the compressed 303 black powder loads that were still being used by the british army at the time

could on some occasions generate a chamber pressure that was twice that of the new nitro powders in use at the time with other nations armies 

so you see black powders can on occasions be a beast as well  . everything in the end comes down to case integrity and chamber pressure 

Edited August 24, 2020 by hafod

[Windswept]

I don't mind warnings but, as mentioned, I have reloaded a fair bit over the years and am fairly careful.

Plenty of people seem to use nitro powders in the magtech cases, this old thread for example: https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/105920-410-brass-cartridges/

I've seen it mentioned the brass cases are at least as strong as plastic, but I'll be cautious and others can make up their own mind.

10 hours ago, saddler said:

First thing I'd try is a different brand of primer

I'd also try a slightly wider card/wad - you are aiming for a good tight fit

Thanks. I was also wondering if I should use a magnum large pistol primer as other similar powders would use a magnum primer in a pistol case. (I'm assuming a large rifle primer wouldn't be wise?)

Certainly the .430 nitro card seems to fit a bit too easily but you can't buy anything around .435 so I'll have to make some of my own.