A day that started badly and got worse.

[lakeside1000]

The forecast was fair, my last visit to the perm revealed several hundred mixed crows, wood pigeons and ferals, so my expectations for a good day out was very high, arriving on the perm the first thing I noticed was almost no movement in the air and only a few birds on the ground.

The day before I had just fully stripped and cleaned my Beretta AL 391 Urika 2, cleaned and oiled it, after noticing one or two jams on the previous session. 

I drove around the headlands checking each field but nothing, so settling on the best option, a newly drilled rape field, I set up the hide with a dozen decoys and settled in, first customer a large carrion crown drifted in on the wind and was quickly dispatched, the gun fired but failed to reload, instead jamming the old cartridge in the breach along with the next one from the magazine,

I pulled out the spend shell and reloaded, check the mechanism but no apparent problem, next in was a wood pigeon, turning slowly into the decoys and presenting at around 40 yards, an easy shot and a straight kill, once again the empty cartridge failed to eject resulting in another jam. 

I cleared this, reloaded the magazine and went out with the gun to collect the prize, as I walked out a small feral came very low over head, waiting a few seconds for it to get out to a better range a good head shot dropped it stone dead, and yes, the gun jammed again, 

Returning to the hide I stripped the gun on my lap , found absolutely nothing wrong and rebuilt it with a drop more oil which I always carry in the car. not wanting to be shooting a single shot gun I reloaded with 3 more cartridges, and test fired one, jammed, cleared, another , jammed and cleared, then another ****, now it was getting very tedious, I cleared away the decoys and hide, after just 30 minutes, drove home and unpacked the car,

In the workshop I took the gun apart again every last pin, spring, plunger and even removed the stock and breach return slide with spring but found nothing, so now very deflated I give up, time to take it to the gunsmiths for their opinion, 

I have to say this gun has been the most reliable I have ever had, for the last 3 years I have put about 1500 to 2000 rounds a year through it without a single problem,  cleaned about once a month and only used with 28 gram 6's the whole time, so now its down to the lads at the shop, credit card at the ready, !!!!!!!!😭😡 

[Zapp]

Have you ever put oil on the gas parts?

[lakeside1000]

I was told when I bought it to clean the area but not to oil as it attracts carbon build up and can slow the recoil / reload down .

As a footnote, when the jam occurs the spend case has been pulled right back to the point of eject but then fails to release the shell, the bolt then starts to move forward again attempting to pick up the reload but still holding the empty, If I pull the bolt back manually the empty fly's out as normal landing 6 feet away.

Edited September 2, 2020 by lakeside1000
Update

[Zapp]

Ok good, that's the reason I was asking as what you're describing could be down to reduced gas pressure (among other things).

Have you cleaned out the gas ports in the barrel?  Could be worth a look.

 

 

[lakeside1000]

Hi Zapp, I have not, I have never figured out how to get anything in there to give it a clean, the ports are still open but I cant tell if there is a partial blockage ?

[sam triple]

What length cartridges were you using my old hatstand did exactly the same thing if loaded with 3 and using 65mm cartridges, but I wouldn’t expect a Beretta to suffer the same 

[Zapp]

23 minutes ago, lakeside1000 said:

Hi Zapp, I have not, I have never figured out how to get anything in there to give it a clean, the ports are still open but I cant tell if there is a partial blockage ?

I use a dentists toothpick and just poke mine through a couple of times a year.  A strong bit of wire that's not going to snap off bent into a bend could do the same, just be careful.

It might be something else altogether like a faulty extractor or something funny going on when the bolt is travelling back, but low gas pressure is where I would look first.

[lakeside1000]

The gun will fire almost any 3" as well as standard 70mm, but I only shoot pigeons , about 2 to 3 times a week and only use 28 gram 70mm cartridges, admittedly I have swapped brands a couple of times but the one I am on now is one I have used for the last 2 months without any real problems

1 minute ago, Zapp said:

I use a dentists toothpick and just poke mine through a couple of times a year.  A strong bit of wire that's not going to snap off bent into a bend could do the same, just be careful.

It might be something else altogether like a faulty extractor or something funny going on when the bolt is travelling back, but low gas pressure is where I would look first.

Thanks Zapp, I will take one last stab at it and see what happens, lucky for me I have a spare gun ( my sons ) so wont miss out on my sport while its away.

[Stonepark]

33 minutes ago, lakeside1000 said:

The gun will fire almost any 3" as well as standard 70mm, but I only shoot pigeons , about 2 to 3 times a week and only use 28 gram 70mm cartridges, admittedly I have swapped brands a couple of times but the one I am on now is one I have used for the last 2 months without any real problems

Thanks Zapp, I will take one last stab at it and see what happens, lucky for me I have a spare gun ( my sons ) so wont miss out on my sport while its away.

Slide and spring best to use a spray on dry lube rather than oil.

 

I clean my gas ports once a year with a piece of cut down drill (to shorten length) bit the correct diameter for the ports so it restores to original diameter  and just twist it back and forth with finger tips.

[Rob85]

What state is the extractor in? Anything semi auto I've come across be it shotgun or my 22 rimfire can usually trace ejection issues back to the extractor or in the case of the rimfire a totally minging chamber can cause issues 

[lakeside1000]

Following Zapp's advice ( thanks again Zapp ) and a quick visit to youtube for some advice on how to get the gas transfer valve out, I have just gouged out a pile of carbon from around the gas transfer ports in the gas valve housing, I have never had the courage to strip this before but 'Coles gunsmiths ' on youtube have a good -no great- strip down video for this very item, which I followed and had no problems at all, why didn't I do it sooner, anyway, now I need a field test and fingers crossed I may have got to the bottom of the problem, thanks for suggestions what would we do without our PW.👍

[Zapp]

Keep us posted on the outcome 

[lakeside1000]

A quick update, after several attempts to clean and test the action on the Beretta I was still no better off, I cleaned the gas transfer valve which I admit was well coked up, but it still would not eject a single cartridge, 

I called in at the local ammo supplies and bought a single box of another brand cartridge, went back to the field and fired 2 series of 3 shots, the eject worked perfectly and sent empties flying out to around 6 feet away.

A quick reload with the original cartridges and  it was back to cartridge case jammed in the chamber, tried again but the same result.

So back to the shop again with the 3 slabs and 4 unopened boxes of the cartridges , they agreed to exchange them for another brand but this time I have decided to up the load for a bit more oomph , so I now have a thousand 31 gram 6's , unfortunately I also have the remainder of the problem cartridges to use up, around 130 which I have taken out of boxes and put in my cartridge bag, 

I did a comparison of the fired cartridge cases to try to work out what the problem was, the plastic case on the cartridge was very soft, had expanded considerably when fired but had also shown unusual distortion of the crimp end, compared to the replacement which had held its shape well, and the crimp had opened evenly with no distortion, also quite noticeable on the faulty cases is the lead pellets on the unfired casing are showing through like small pimples all around the end of the casing , presumable forced outwards when the crip end was closed, very odd!

Fired in a standard side by side or under over I dont think it would have been a problem but the force required to eject from the Beretta was seemingly insufficient to overcome the drag caused by the enlarged casing, thats the only conclusion I can come to but at least I am back out after the pigeons , the excess soft cased cartridges will get used up in my spare gun but for now they are destined for the loft.

I know someone is going to ask what brand the soft casing were , this was a new batch of 1000,  28 gram 6 , RC Competition fibre wad, bought to replace my previous cartridges which were 28 gram 6 Romagnola's, 

The new 31 gram 6's are also Romagnola , so I am confident these will cycle well.

tried to do sme photos of the unusual distortion in the cases, best I can do with my camera skills .

The orange one on the left was the replacement used in the test, these were LA 28 Joker, which performed well 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by lakeside1000

[Zapp]

Interesting.  Glad you've at least got to the bottom of it.