Joint pins

[Gunman]

Following on from comments on the AyA tread I was asked to expand on the subject of joint or hinge pins . I will have to do this in a couple of "chapters "and will answer comments as I can .

In general usage there are two main types either solid  or loose pins , pins being the accepted term, the gun trade term .

Solid pins are formed as an integral part of the action body and were widely used by the likes of Webley and Scott , Westley Richards and many others from the first breech loading hammer guns up to the present day .

I could spend a lot of words discussing the whys and wherefores but we have to accept this was the way it was . 

As I recall the W & S 700 action had 100 machine operations , give or take a couple, to get it to the stage it was ready for use , Some 36 of these was in forming the pin . The first of these was to gang mill the sides on the forging , this was then drilled through at the knuckle .This hole was to become the center of the joint pin and the datum point for all other machine operations.

The photos show the pin from the front and top as well as the center hole on a W & S action and a unmade off "through " knock in pin on a hammer gun . Sorry about the photo quality .

Loose pins came in 2 kinds , knock in or screw , depending on the type of action could be through pins , that went completely through a gun body as in many hammer guns or hidden in sidelocks or boxlocks . This meant that the pin was inside the action behind lifters or cocking dogs . If you look at the side of the action at the knuckle you may see a large cap or cover plate , with a slot which gave access to the pin for removal . But there are some guns not always of lower quality that had blind caps , that is caps with no screw slots and were never intended to be removed . Gunmakers of the time probably did not think their guns would still be in use 100 later and even if they did the relative costs of removing and replacing would have been a lot less then .

Knock in pins were exactly as described they were driven in with an interference fit sometimes with a locking pin or peg .Screw pins were just that threaded at one end but needed a slightly heavier body to take the larger screw head and larger cap . The left cap normally than  larger than the right by tradition on a screw pin  but often the same with a knock in be it removable or blind .

There of course exceptions to all this as with Cogswell & Harrison who's guns had a screwed joint pin that went completely through the action of the boxlocks but a large proportion was cut away internally for the cocking dogs .Greener's had screwed through pins on his Facile Princip guns due to the design  

 

[DUNKS]

Thanks for that. very interesting indeed. It's the sort of info I am sure will interest many.

I have had two guns "re jointed" both with screw in pins fortunately.

[Dave at kelton]

Very interesting. So follow on question. When repointing solid pins I assume this was when the dovetail method of working on the barrel lump was adopted?

[Gunman]

4 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

Very interesting. So follow on question. When repointing solid pins I assume this was when the dovetail method of working on the barrel lump was adopted?

No that was an old method of a quick cheap fix and I have seen guns of all types with this .

Unfortunately  it also became the accepted method of some of the provincial trade , so many guns  ,even high quality ones were treated this way .

Even up to the seventies many small  gunsmiths shops, even in  B'ham did not have decent lathes , very small model makers lathes and even treadle lathes , any one with a basic Myford was high tech . So new joint pins were not the first thought to a lot of the old timers and "country gunsmiths " . Other methods of tightening and rejoining were used some may now seem quite brutal but were effective .

Welding up with an arc welder was successful but needed a lot of filing up as well as a welder who was skilled enough for "fine work".  Spray welding came in in the 60's on and was the prefered method of many ,prior to the introduction of MIG then Tig and now lazer welding . 

 

[Dave at kelton]

51 minutes ago, Gunman said:

No that was an old method of a quick cheap fix and I have seen guns of all types with this .

Unfortunately  it also became the accepted method of some of the provincial trade , so many guns  ,even high quality ones were treated this way .

Even up to the seventies many small  gunsmiths shops, even in  B'ham did not have decent lathes , very small model makers lathes and even treadle lathes , any one with a basic Myford was high tech . So new joint pins were not the first thought to a lot of the old timers and "country gunsmiths " . Other methods of tightening and rejoining were used some may now seem quite brutal but were effective .

Welding up with an arc welder was successful but needed a lot of filing up as well as a welder who was skilled enough for "fine work".  Spray welding came in in the 60's on and was the prefered method of many ,prior to the introduction of MIG then Tig and now lazer welding . 

 

Great thanks. I had come across the dovetail on some good quality guns. I did have a few rejointed in Brum, when I was buying hammerguns and they were sprayed by my chosen gunsmith.

[JohnfromUK]

I had a gun re-jointed back in the 1980s in B'ham (by Powells).  I'm not now sure how it was done (sidelock Powell), but I do know a little metal was added to the 'hook', and I also know that it wasn't the first time my old gun had been rejointed.  However best part of 40 years on, it has never worked loose and is still in use now.  I am always very careful to clean off the pin and hook - and apply a tiny smear of fresh clean grease every time it has been used, which I am convinced minimises wear.

The gun is 100 years old and has clearly at times had 'a mixed life'.

[Rob85]

Apart from welding up the hook and filing to fit, and dovetailing in some metal, what other methods are there for rejoining? I suppose with the advent of the super strong epoxy glues (like some of the stuff ive used in work) that are available  there is a possibility of bonding material to the hook before fitting to the pin....possibly a quick cheap fix for lower quality guns.

[McSpredder]

Many thanks, Gunman.   Fascinating information for those of us who, though never directly involved in gunmaking or gunsmithing, have followed careers in other branches of engineering.

It is easy for an outsider to look at something designed long ago and say “That seems crazy, why on earth did they choose to make it that way?”, but there was almost certainly a good reason at the time.   And with regard to modern manufacture, most of us have on some occasion said “If I ever meet the person who designed that…...…”

[Gunman]

18 hours ago, Rob85 said:

Apart from welding up the hook and filing to fit, and dovetailing in some metal, what other methods are there for rejoining? I suppose with the advent of the super strong epoxy glues (like some of the stuff ive used in work) that are available  there is a possibility of bonding material to the hook before fitting to the pin....possibly a quick cheap fix for lower quality guns.

Often seen in American DIY videos . Used to be known as an "auctioneers rejoint "and often involved a bit of tin can or foil . 

Ok it may be fine for a  temporary quick fix but it is a bodge job . BUT , the gun should never have got to that stage in the first place .