Another MOT query

[Dave-G]

Will a car that has power steering as original equipment pass an MOT if the power assisted mechanism is deleted?

A long story is available for anyone who is bored enough to stretch the thread out.

[bluesj]

if the steering works as in you don't need to be super man to turn the wheel and is safe it makes no difference if its power assisted or not.

[Dave-G]

21 minutes ago, bluesj said:

if the steering works as in you don't need to be super man to turn the wheel and is safe it makes no difference if its power assisted or not.

Thanks for that - I just found this:  though it skirts the issue of it possibly being not optional but standard equipment. (02 reg Civic)

2.6. Electronic power steering (EPS),Hidethis section

For the purpose of this inspection, electronic power steering includes any steering system that incorporates an electric motor to control or assist the steering.

If electronic power steering is an optional fitment on the vehicle but it’s been disconnected, the vehicle should only be failed if the steering is adversely affected. You may have to do a road test to check this.

If a vehicle has a manually switched electronic park assist but the power assistance is not working, the vehicle should only be failed if the steering is adversely affected. You may have to do a road test to check this.

For ‘fly by wire’ steering systems, check that the steered wheels are pointing straight ahead with the steering wheel in the straight-ahead position.

Defect	Category
(a) EPS MIL indicating a system malfunction	Major
(b) On ‘fly by wire systems’, the angle of the steering wheel and the angle of the road wheels is: (i) inconsistent (ii) inconsistent to the extent that the steering is adversely affected	Major Dangerous
(c) Electronic power assistance not working	Major

Edited October 24, 2021 by Dave-G

[Marka11]

Technically if not working correctly it’s a fail as the steering is affected in the way it operates but why does it not work have you checked the feed to it the cause could be the Alternator as it’s electric seen it before cost my mate £70 to have his alternator sorted had same problem

[robbiep]

On 24/10/2021 at 12:45, Dave-G said:

Thanks for that - I just found this:  though it skirts the issue of it possibly being not optional but standard equipment. (02 reg Civic)

2.6. Electronic power steering (EPS),Hidethis section

For the purpose of this inspection, electronic power steering includes any steering system that incorporates an electric motor to control or assist the steering.

If electronic power steering is an optional fitment on the vehicle but it’s been disconnected, the vehicle should only be failed if the steering is adversely affected. You may have to do a road test to check this.

If a vehicle has a manually switched electronic park assist but the power assistance is not working, the vehicle should only be failed if the steering is adversely affected. You may have to do a road test to check this.

For ‘fly by wire’ steering systems, check that the steered wheels are pointing straight ahead with the steering wheel in the straight-ahead position.

Defect	Category
(a) EPS MIL indicating a system malfunction	Major
(b) On ‘fly by wire systems’, the angle of the steering wheel and the angle of the road wheels is: (i) inconsistent (ii) inconsistent to the extent that the steering is adversely affected	Major Dangerous
(c) Electronic power assistance not working	Major

That is for electronic power steering. I suspect an 02 Honda will have hydraulic power steering

[robbiep]

Just looked it up : 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/2-steering#section-2-1-5

States that power steering inoperative is a 'major' fail, inoperative and steering adversely affected is a 'dangerous' fail

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, Marka11 said:

Technically if not working correctly it’s a fail as the steering is affected in the way it operates but why does it not work have you checked the feed to it the cause could be the Alternator as it’s electric seen it before cost my mate £70 to have his alternator sorted had same problem

Battery and alternator voltages seem to be fine - including when turning electrics on, seem to be a common theme because it draws very high amps apparently but so do failed ECU's, torque sensors and motors in the electric steering rack. I unknowingly bought the car with the wrong dedicated EPS ECU in. I'm guessing a previous owner tried to locate the right part number ECU but couldn't. I got the correct part number from the local Honda dealer - the ECU is no longer available, nor is the rack.

I'm quite good with sorting older cars and naively assumed it would be a simple electric motor fix. Thing is the car has absolutely NO body/underbody rust apart from the exhaust, its in way too good condition to scrap and only done 83k miles. The power steering when it works before the car warms up is stupidly light - a one finger job even when stationary on concrete or tarmack and normal tyre pressure. 

I removed the (brushed) electric motor today: having in mind its sealed - not vented like say a vacuum or drill, expecting it to have loads of trapped carbon dust possibly shorting things out. An eye opener was FOUR brushes with carbon lodged between the commutators which might be the fault, the brushes are very bulky with lots of life left in them. I brushed and blew quite a bit of dust from between the brushes too which could be tracking electricity then blew a load out with compressed air.

I may have found a breaker with the right ECU this evening - everything else about the car matches but he's yet to look at the number. Two other breakers claimed they had it but but when asked for photos they suddenly weren't correct. Having removed the motor I drove it - a bit too hard for the wife to drive when turning into parking bays - I'm thinking the worm drive that's still in the rack is producing a lot of drag as it's reverse geared when driven from the rack. 

I have to make a 20mm hex tool to remove the ring that retains the worm drive - which I expected to be part of the motor shaft but its a spline joined separate part. All the posts I've seen from Honda users who did the delete suggest the steering feels better with more feedback than the dead dull too light assisted steering - presumably fitted just because its expected these days even on much lighter cars than of old.

1 hour ago, robbiep said:

Just looked it up : 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/2-steering#section-2-1-5

States that power steering inoperative is a 'major' fail, inoperative and steering adversely affected is a 'dangerous' fail

Hi Rob, Its defo EPS, further down your page shows this: 

2.6. Electronic power steering (EPS),Hidethis section

For the purpose of this inspection, electronic power steering includes any steering system that incorporates an electric motor to control or assist the steering.

If electronic power steering is an optional fitment on the vehicle but it’s been disconnected, the vehicle should only be failed if the steering is adversely affected. You may have to do a road test to check this.

If a vehicle has a manually switched electronic park assist but the power assistance is not working, the vehicle should only be failed if the steering is adversely affected. You may have to do a road test to check this.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Dave-G

[Dave-G]

HUH! Cleaning out the carbon dust from the sealed case motor has sorted the issue - despite its ECU being an incorrect part number. 

Wife with her seriously arthritic hands is very happy with the drive now.

Seems my original instinct when buying the car that it would be a simple motor issue was totally correct and I ought to have gone with that instead of googling the issue. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Dave-G

[Dave-G]

I've left it too late to edit my last post but this is a motoring section and I think my bit of electric motor education might somehow be useful for other people who like to fiddle with such things - and may even permit someone to deploy a more simple one of these motors in some custom equipment perhaps.

The FOUR brushes got me mulling them for a few days and how I'd observed when I put a meter to the single pair of thick motor cables, steering left produced a minus voltage and steering right saw a plus voltage. Its taken me some time to figure out the ramifications of four brushes. 

It's a two way electric motor with red positive for clockwise column rotation and black positive for anticlockwise rotation, initiated by a sensor on the column and governed by a torque sensor on the rack input spline and regulated by the ECU. The voltages went up to about 8 volts depending on how far/fast I turned the wheel.

When the ECU blocked it there was less than 1 volt 'assisting' the steering.

 

There's some very clever people about.

[Gordon R]

Dave-G - I admire your doggedness in sorting that out. A few years ago, my wife had a Vauxhall Meriva with electric power steering. It caused me no concern, but it was too heavy for her when it cut out. The temporary cure was to switch the ignition off and back on - problem solved for a week. A common fault on the Merivas, caused by holding the steering on full lock. Replacement cost £800.

Just traded it in.