jall25 Posted June 8 Report Share Posted June 8 Chaps Thoughts please - and i know some have commented on another thread - about the potential for steel shot to be ingested by birds - ground down slowly in the gizzard but then end up ultimately in the meat - potentially causing issues for animals and mammals eating it Studies found only seem to have monitored ducks for 30 days which seems no time at all - this also used lead and the ducks died quickly - hence the chance of them ever entering the food chain is slim if still not good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted June 8 Report Share Posted June 8 52 minutes ago, jall25 said: Chaps Thoughts please - and i know some have commented on another thread - about the potential for steel shot to be ingested by birds - ground down slowly in the gizzard but then end up ultimately in the meat - potentially causing issues for animals and mammals eating it Studies found only seem to have monitored ducks for 30 days which seems no time at all - this also used lead and the ducks died quickly - hence the chance of them ever entering the food chain is slim if still not good I imagine steel shot is ingested just the same as lead but presumably without the consequences it being non toxic ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windswept Posted June 8 Report Share Posted June 8 5 minutes ago, holloway said: I imagine steel shot is ingested just the same as lead but presumably without the consequences it being non toxic ? Non toxic is a bit of a misnomer, I think most things can be harmless or toxic depending on intake. Water can kill if you drink enough. Iron can cause severe problems in humans so I would expect it could cause problems in birds if they ate enough. the question for me is do they eat enough to cause harm which is a similar question to lead intake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted June 8 Report Share Posted June 8 Lead kills ducks quickly with lethal exposure, but with sub-lethal exposure they're arguably more likely to enter the food chain as they're weaker and tend to get shot/predated more easily. Iron shot wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Metallic iron powder is added to breakfast cereals and there's orders of magnitude more of it than you'd ever be exposed to from eating a duck that had swallowed a load of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted June 8 Author Report Share Posted June 8 2 hours ago, holloway said: I imagine steel shot is ingested just the same as lead but presumably without the consequences it being non toxic ? As below from Windswept Also if its harder and does not break down in lead but stays in the gizzard - long term will this mean birds cant eat as much (enough) or get other grit in there for vitamins and minerals ? 44 minutes ago, Smudger687 said: Lead kills ducks quickly with lethal exposure, but with sub-lethal exposure they're arguably more likely to enter the food chain as they're weaker and tend to get shot/predated more easily. Iron shot wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Metallic iron powder is added to breakfast cereals and there's orders of magnitude more of it than you'd ever be exposed to from eating a duck that had swallowed a load of it. But i wonder how we know / quantify too much ? We aet magnesium / calcium / potassium and so it goes on - but in tiny doses If a duck - that can live for 20 years has been eating steel - how much may ot have in its muscles / flesh / bones ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger687 Posted June 9 Report Share Posted June 9 9 hours ago, jall25 said: As below from Windswept Also if its harder and does not break down in lead but stays in the gizzard - long term will this mean birds cant eat as much (enough) or get other grit in there for vitamins and minerals ? But i wonder how we know / quantify too much ? We aet magnesium / calcium / potassium and so it goes on - but in tiny doses If a duck - that can live for 20 years has been eating steel - how much may ot have in its muscles / flesh / bones ? A single duck, even if it had high iron amounts in its muscle, is still not going to cause a human an issue. Iron infusions, that go directly into a vein, often administer an entire gram of Iron, sometimes more. A single duck isn't going to come close to that amount no matter how mych iron it ate, and even if it did, it has to go through the gut which won't absorb most of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted June 9 Author Report Share Posted June 9 Thanks Smudger Any thoughts on Tungsten or copper coated shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted June 9 Report Share Posted June 9 @jall25 in Denmark there has been sampling done of pheasants and mallard post-lead shot ban and steel shot is now the main shot type that the birds pick up as grit. The scientists raise no concerns about that in the paper. https://www.jstor.org/stable/48693533 To assess current levels of compliance with Danish regulations, we purchased 730 carcasses of pheasants (Phasianus colchicus) and mallards (Anas platyrhynchos) and a further 690 mallard gizzards were obtained from > 14 shooting events distributed across > 10 local authority districts throughout East and West Denmark in the 2016/2017 and 2017/2018 hunting seasons. All carcasses and gizzards were subject to radiography and those that contained shot were examined, pellets removed by dissection and identified to shot type. In all, 3589 pellets (intact or fragmented) were found in 1420 carcasses/gizzards, of which 799 pellets (some fragmented) were identified. Among the sample of pheasants with embedded shot (N = 447), 1.8% (in 2016) and 2.2% (in 2017) were lead shot. Among 148 mallards in 2017 with embedded shot, 3.1% had lead shot. None of the 2017 mallard gizzards had embedded lead shot. We conclude that Danish pheasant and mallard shooters mostly comply with the lead shot regulations. Steel was the most used non-lead alternative. The majority of ingested shot was non-lead, indicating that lead shot is not generally available to pheasant and mallard and suggesting compliance with regulations in recent years/decades. The study showed that the possibility to predict the metal composition of shot pellets from X-ray images alone was highly inaccurate, confirming the necessity of necropsy to determine shot type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Boggy Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 On 08/06/2024 at 23:06, Smudger687 said: Lead kills ducks quickly with lethal exposure, but with sub-lethal exposure they're arguably more likely to enter the food chain as they're weaker and tend to get shot/predated more easily. Iron shot wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Metallic iron powder is added to breakfast cereals and there's orders of magnitude more of it than you'd ever be exposed to from eating a duck that had swallowed a load of it. I do wonder the ramifications of shot in the gut if you happen to have an MRI scan as they always ask that anything metallic be removed. I thought that scanners use strong magnets, but not too sure on that. Perhaps someone can clarify. I`ve had a couple of scans recently and always asked if I have any metal implants, stents etc. OB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 On 21/06/2024 at 11:32, Old Boggy said: I do wonder the ramifications of shot in the gut if you happen to have an MRI scan as they always ask that anything metallic be removed. I thought that scanners use strong magnets, but not too sure on that. Perhaps someone can clarify. I`ve had a couple of scans recently and always asked if I have any metal implants, stents etc. OB The Society and College of Radiographers informed BASC that to their knowledge there have been no reported incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in the UK. However, the steel shot could cause image distortion during the MRI scan and for that reason if you think you have ingested steel shot before your scan you should let the staff in the MRI department know before your appointment. Also, worth noting that there have been no recorded incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in Denmark or USA where steel shot has been used for decades for live quarry shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Boggy Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 Many thanks for clarifying that Conor. My wife had an x-ray a few months ago and was asked if she ate game as the radiographer noted two pieces of lead shot in her stomach. I really should take more care when preparing game😂. OB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted June 29 Report Share Posted June 29 On 27/06/2024 at 22:46, Old Boggy said: Many thanks for clarifying that Conor. My wife had an x-ray a few months ago and was asked if she ate game as the radiographer noted two pieces of lead shot in her stomach. I really should take more care when preparing game😂. OB Happy to help. If you are thinking of swapping over from lead shot to steel shot for live quarry shooting to reduce the risk of birds picking up lead shot as grit the following webpages may help: https://basc.org.uk/ammunition/using-non-lead-shot-for-live-quarry-shooting/ https://basc.org.uk/moving-forward-for-the-future-of-shooting/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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