Belgian 410

[wymberley]

Could anyone who has one kindly tell me how the chamber length is indicated by the proof mark(s)? Neither I nor its owner have any idea of its age so info' on all chamber marks across the years is welcomed.

Cheers.

EDIT Ambiguity hopefully corrected.

Edited July 21 by wymberley

[enfieldspares]

Hello. Most Belgian guns in .410" will either be 2" or 2 1/2" I'd believe. I think that it should have an oval with either 50mm or 65mm stamped in it. On my Belgian 12 bore which is post 1924, it has, from memory, an oval with 12-65. 

Edited July 21 by enfieldspares

[wymberley]

22 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Hello. Most Belgian guns in .410" will either be 2" or 2 1/2" I'd believe. I think that it should have an oval with either 50mm or 65mm stamped in it. On my Belgian 12 bore which is post 1924, it has, from memory, an oval with 12-65. 

Yep, that's what I thought. 

PM inbound.

[Fil]

19 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Hello. Most Belgian guns in .410" will either be 2" or 2 1/2" I'd believe. I think that it should have an oval with either 50mm or 65mm stamped in it. On my Belgian 12 bore which is post 1924, it has, from memory, an oval with 12-65. 

Yes this and also very important make sure it has the letters P.V. stamped with the proof marks. This is to denote that it is proofed for nitro. If it's not got the letters P.V. it is black powder only. I've seen hundreds in circulation that haven't been nitro proofed. Also the older non nitro proofed ones may have 12m in the diamond with the letter C denoting a 36 bore or 12mm cartridge. (.410 as we know it) It wouldn't have been nitro proofed at the time either.  

[wymberley]

On 22/07/2024 at 13:53, Fil said:

Yes this and also very important make sure it has the letters P.V. stamped with the proof marks. This is to denote that it is proofed for nitro. If it's not got the letters P.V. it is black powder only. I've seen hundreds in circulation that haven't been nitro proofed. Also the older non nitro proofed ones may have 12m in the diamond with the letter C denoting a 36 bore or 12mm cartridge. (.410 as we know it) It wouldn't have been nitro proofed at the time either.  

Many thanks.

There is no diamond, but an open oval so we're post '24. Sadly, it's vey blurred but according to a local clay range it's telling us 410 and 65. A local RFD had already checked it over and said it's safe to use and sold the owner - who had gone in for some advice - some 3" cartridges. From the photo's I have I'm reasonably sure that there's no nitro proof - neither of the above 2 outfits have mentioned proof so I may be wrong, but I fear not.

I'm good to go with nitro but as I could do with something to strengthen my case, does anyone happen to know what the pressures - service and proof perhaps - for a 2&1/2" (65 mm) 410 are/would have been for black powder? MTIA

[London Best]

35 minutes ago, wymberley said:

according to a local clay range it's telling us 410 and 65. A local RFD had already checked it over and said it's safe to use and sold the owner - who had gone in for some advice - some 3" cartridges. 

Typical gun dealer! Clueless.

[Fil]

16 hours ago, wymberley said:

Many thanks.

There is no diamond, but an open oval so we're post '24. Sadly, it's vey blurred but according to a local clay range it's telling us 410 and 65. A local RFD had already checked it over and said it's safe to use and sold the owner - who had gone in for some advice - some 3" cartridges. From the photo's I have I'm reasonably sure that there's no nitro proof - neither of the above 2 outfits have mentioned proof so I may be wrong, but I fear not.

I'm good to go with nitro but as I could do with something to strengthen my case, does anyone happen to know what the pressures - service and proof perhaps - for a 2&1/2" (65 mm) 410 are/would have been for black powder? MTIA

Yes. Sorry. They did have an oval. You are correct. The ones that denote the calibre in metric (12mm) are in a diamond. Pre 68 nitro is P.V with a "prancing lion"? above the letters.

I'm no professional with .410 cartridge pressures so I can't help you there but if I take my hat off I have shot many of these "black powder only" folders with nitro and proofing them was a mere formality if there was no pitting. (Proof houses do not like pitting) By saying this I am not saying "you'll be fine." I'm just telling you what I have done. 

Your come back is you may not have bought it had you known it was black powder only and they did not advertise as such. If you really want to fox the "rfd" who said it's safe to use ask why he never stated it was black powder only and ask him "can you tell me what the bore size is?"  That will make them wiggle. 

16 hours ago, London Best said:

Typical gun dealer! Clueless.

I can guarantee they have no means of measuring the chamber, bore or wall thickness let alone read proof marks. 

[wymberley]

4 hours ago, Fil said:

Yes. Sorry. They did have an oval. You are correct. The ones that denote the calibre in metric (12mm) are in a diamond. Pre 68 nitro is P.V with a "prancing lion"? above the letters.

I'm no professional with .410 cartridge pressures so I can't help you there but if I take my hat off I have shot many of these "black powder only" folders with nitro and proofing them was a mere formality if there was no pitting. (Proof houses do not like pitting) By saying this I am not saying "you'll be fine." I'm just telling you what I have done. 

Your come back is you may not have bought it had you known it was black powder only and they did not advertise as such. If you really want to fox the "rfd" who said it's safe to use ask why he never stated it was black powder only and ask him "can you tell me what the bore size is?"  That will make them wiggle. 

I can guarantee they have no means of measuring the chamber, bore or wall thickness let alone read proof marks. 

Many thanks.

I have no idea from where the gun was acquired and am just trying to prevent a young great-nephew from getting injured however minor that may be. At least the use of 3" has been knocked on the head. 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

At least the use of 3" has been knocked on the head. 

No thanks to the stupid expert gun dealer.

[martinj]

Untitled (hunting.be)

Wym, some useful info in the link, if you have any further doubts why not post some photos of the markings?

[wymberley]

38 minutes ago, martinj said:

Untitled (hunting.be)

Wym, some useful info in the link, if you have any further doubts why not post some photos of the markings?

Many thanks.

I have all 8 pages of the link and apart from the one mark which was blurred but which the clay range chappie identified from a better photo as the bore/chamber there is nothing I can see which would indicate nitro proof.

[Fil]

18 hours ago, wymberley said:

Many thanks.

I have all 8 pages of the link and apart from the one mark which was blurred but which the clay range chappie identified from a better photo as the bore/chamber there is nothing I can see which would indicate nitro proof.

Just for clarity your barrel should bear mark 19 as shown on that download from the link. On all nitro proved arms since 1903

[wymberley]

27 minutes ago, Fil said:

Just for clarity your barrel should bear mark 19 as shown on that download from the link. On all nitro proved arms since 1903

Yep, plus the crown surmounted oval version post '68.

As an aside, I don't know whether or not it was an actual bequest but the gun was gifted by a good friend who has since died. Will know more in a few days.

[enfieldspares]

FWIW black powder and nitro are different animals as of course is well known. Less well known is that the former may give less "pressure" but delivers that pressure the full length of the barrel. Nitro may give more pressure at the breech but delivers less pressure by the time the ejecta (a posh name for the bullet or shot and it's wadding) has travelled further down the barrel.

This is why British shotguns long after black powder ceased to be the propellant in any mainstream commercial shotgun cartridges still continued to be used to proof guns in the Proof Houses. Black powder would expose defects and weaknesses prsent in the full length of the barrel. But nitro at the breech gives more pressure and in a worst case will cause more harm.

The often seen thing pre the 1996 Tory fullbore pistol ban were .455 Webley Mark IV revolvers with cracked or bulged cylinders. The .455 Mark IV was the last "black powder" cylinder chamber wall dimensioned service Webley. The Mark V and Mark VI had thicker cylinder chamber wall dimensions.

Having said that I've seen Webley WG revolvers repeatedly shot...five hundred rounds in a day...with the infamous fully jacketed .455 military ammunition suffer no harm. So it is really all about the quality of the metal and the strength of the metal and not merely what's stamped on the weapon. Not just what it is capable of chambering and actually then firing.

As an extreme example Smith & Wesson 9mm Parabellum chambered revolvers had thinner cylinder walls than the obsolete Dutch military revolver later fired during the aftermath of the wicked murder of the soldier Lee Rugby. So it's the quality and strength and metal not just it's apparent thickness at the place where the cartridge is detonated.

I used to ride motorcycles. In the early 1990s. A Kawasaki 750 Turbo no less. I remember a populay saying back then from my CBT instructor. The day I can buy a £10 head (or get a free head) is the day I'll wear a £10 (or free) helmet. If you buy such (or get given such) best just use it only as a conversation and display piece.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26 by enfieldspares

[Fil]

17 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

FWIW black powder and nitro are different animals as of course is well known. Less well known is that the former may give less "pressure" but delivers that pressure the full length of the barrel. Nitro may give more pressure at the breech but delivers less pressure by the time the ejecta (a push name for the bullet or shot and it's wadding) has travelled further down the barrel.

But nitro at the breech gives more pressure and in a worst case will cause more harm.

 

I once submitted a very pitted Powell Damascus barrelled double hammer gun for nitro proof on behest of the customer. (It was some rare patented closer)

I said they might not like it because the pitting was very deep and I couldn't bore it out but I managed to make them looking ok between the pits.  He still insisted to send it. Jeff at the London proof house rang me to say he wasn't keen but as he always said. "there's only one way to find out." It passed nitro proof but he wanted to be sure so he asked "boss" his opinion. "Black it" said the Proof Master. 

Two big flash bangs later the barrels still didn't move so they had no choice but to stamp it up. 

So yes, you are absolutely right. Black and nitro are two different animals. I think nitro stops burning about 6-9 inches from the breech from memory but I bow to better knowledge/memory.  (I just make the bloody things!) Whereas black powder burns all the way hence the fun in shooting in low light  😆

Then saying that, I sent another hammer gun for nitro proof. I was concerned about the dainty action but my colleague insisted I give it a try. It definitely wasn't made for the breech pressures of nitro. It bent the action.  Oops. 

17 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

This is why British shotguns long after black powder ceased to be the propellant in any mainstream commercial shotgun cartridges still continued to be used to proof guns in the Proof Houses. Black powder would expose defects and weaknesses present in the full length of the barrel.

 

We still can get our gun barrels provisionally proofed before we go onto "actioning" them. It's still done with black powder. 

[steve s×s]

On 23/07/2024 at 17:25, London Best said:

Typical gun dealer! Clueless.

Firm but Fair lol