Buy or sell

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The idea that the voluntary transition away from lead shot prompted the post-Brexit UK REACH review of lead ammunition is arguably the logic of a six year old to use your analogy. Next we be hearing how the voluntary transition in the UK has promoted the EU REACH review of lead ammunition taking place.

As far as I’m aware I haven’t suggested any such thing; Swifty through BASC was pushing the lead has to go mantra long before Brexit, and cosying up to the WWT long before then also, to push his point. 
We all know how that relationship and agenda ended don’t we? Yet here we are several years down the road, with a new CEO and many new staff, still pushing the same old mantra. 
Are you seriously trying to tell us Conor, that there isn’t a lead shot ban on the horizon? 
Are you all so naive as to think that if you push for a voluntary phase out to show others our green credentials, and how responsible we are, those who oppose what we do will leave us alone to carry on killing stuff for fun?
I can see why it’s being pushed from a driven game point of view; because without the sales of that big corporate shoot entering the food chain we have no justification in killing game. Makes sense entirely, but we’re still doing the killing part for no other reason than fun, and if any of you believe this desperate clutching at straws to be anything more than a stay of execution, then perhaps six is a gross exaggeration? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

As far as I’m aware I haven’t suggested any such thing; Swifty through BASC was pushing the lead has to go mantra long before Brexit, and cosying up to the WWT long before then also, to push his point. 
We all know how that relationship and agenda ended don’t we? Yet here we are several years down the road, with a new CEO and many new staff, still pushing the same old mantra. 
Are you seriously trying to tell us Conor, that there isn’t a lead shot ban on the horizon? 
Are you all so naive as to think that if you push for a voluntary phase out to show others our green credentials, and how responsible we are, those who oppose what we do will leave us alone to carry on killing stuff for fun?
I can see why it’s being pushed from a driven game point of view; because without the sales of that big corporate shoot entering the food chain we have no justification in killing game. Makes sense entirely, but we’re still doing the killing part for no other reason than fun, and if any of you believe this desperate clutching at straws to be anything more than a stay of execution, then perhaps six is a gross exaggeration? 

Best to look forward than backwards methinks - here is a BASC update published today:

https://basc.org.uk/five-years-on-sustaining-the-transition-away-from-lead/

 

[Konor]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

As far as I’m aware I haven’t suggested any such thing; Swifty through BASC was pushing the lead has to go mantra long before Brexit, and cosying up to the WWT long before then also, to push his point. 
We all know how that relationship and agenda ended don’t we? Yet here we are several years down the road, with a new CEO and many new staff, still pushing the same old mantra. 
Are you seriously trying to tell us Conor, that there isn’t a lead shot ban on the horizon? 
Are you all so naive as to think that if you push for a voluntary phase out to show others our green credentials, and how responsible we are, those who oppose what we do will leave us alone to carry on killing stuff for fun?
I can see why it’s being pushed from a driven game point of view; because without the sales of that big corporate shoot entering the food chain we have no justification in killing game. Makes sense entirely, but we’re still doing the killing part for no other reason than fun, and if any of you believe this desperate clutching at straws to be anything more than a stay of execution, then perhaps six is a gross exaggeration? 

Fine plain speaking Scully once he’s had his tea and biscuits it will be interesting to see the response.

2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Best to look forward than backwards methinks - here is a BASC update published today:

That’s convenient for those responsible for approaching this issue the way they have. Perhaps we can look forward to some long awaited accountability.

[Konor]

Conor bearing in mind the original post of this thread, have you any thoughts on your options should there be increased restrictions . Do you own any guns at present or are you holding off to see what option seem most appropriate. I can’t bring to mind any of your posts in the guns and equipment section.

[enfieldspares]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

Are you all so naive as to think that if you push for a voluntary phase out to show others our green credentials, and how responsible we are, those who oppose what we do will leave us alone to carry on killing stuff for fun?

I can see why it’s being pushed from a driven game point of view; because without the sales of that big corporate shoot entering the food chain we have no justification in killing game.

Makes sense entirely, but we’re still doing the killing part for no other reason than fun, and if any of you believe this desperate clutching at straws to be anything more than a stay of execution, then perhaps six is a gross exaggeration? 

Thank you for posting this.

The only thing I can think to add is the one word comment as to why BASC wanted it is...DANEGELD.

On another forum I asked if BASC would push for a derogation for .410", 9mm R/F and .22 R/F shot cartridges and was told a robust no. I can cut and paste if need be.

enfieldspares said: What of .22 Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotguns? I shot a rat in my garden two months back with my 9mm Rimfire Webley bolt action. These can't be reloaded and there are NO non-lead options? The number is so few that there should at the very least be a push for these to be exempted.

Conor O'Gorman said: That rat you shot with lead shot came at the expense of how many birds that subsequently ate the lead shot you fired in your garden? Maybe none, maybe some. That is perhaps the bigger picture to bear in mind as regards live quarry shooting where the risks of lead shot dissemination cannot be contained - the approach of HSE has been zero risk in this respect - so if there are to be exemptions, what should be the cut off point be as regards the continuation of lead shot for live quarry shooting - and is it politically tenable to argue to continue to poison birds using some types of cartridges 'just because'? Some are lobbying the Government for a ban on ALL lead ammunition ASAP for recreational shooting regardless of the evidence or impacts on our sector, and if they are successful we might forget about another 5-6 years transition time. Food for thought.

Edited February 24 by enfieldspares

[enfieldspares]

And as for the steel in .410" this from Gamebore was quoted on the other forum.

And those who say that steel .410" is available in the USA clearly have no idea of how much lead .410" USA made cartridges cost vis-a-vis the UK equivalent.

Imported steel USA made .410" would also likely be prohibitively expensive see below.

Lead loaded USA cartridges sell at a 70% price increase against UK made lead .410" equivalent ((Winchester lead 3" .410" are listed on Just Cartridges at £698 per 1,000 - Lyalvale 3" Magnum .410" are listed on Just Cartridges at £409 per 1,000).

And in any case steel loaded USA .410" may likely be outwith CIP pressure limits to be allowed to be sold here.

So the cheapest alternative is bismuth. At four times the price £1461 per 1,000 for .410" vs £409 per 1,000 for lead. (Both 3" .410" Magnum Lyalvale Express as priced at Just Cartridges).

Yet BASC will not argue for an exception for .410"

Reply from Gamebore.
Good Morning,
Thank you for your enquiry.
Unfortunately we have no plans to develop any .410 loads with Steel shot. As steel is lighter than lead, requiring the pellets to be two sizes larger, it is not possible to fit enough pellets inside the tube to make it a viable/effective load.
I’m very sorry to disappoint you with this.
Kind regards,
Lydia Abdelaoui

Gamebore

Edited February 24 by enfieldspares

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Thank you for posting this.

The only thing I can think to add is the one word comment as to why BASC wanted it is...DANEGELD.

On another forum I asked if BASC would push for a derogation for .410", 9mm R/F and .22 R/F shot cartridges and was told a robust no. I can cut and paste if need be.

enfieldspares said: What of .22 Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotguns? I shot a rat in my garden two months back with my 9mm Rimfire Webley bolt action. These can't be reloaded and there are NO non-lead options? The number is so few that there should at the very least be a push for these to be exempted.

Conor O'Gorman said: That rat you shot with lead shot came at the expense of how many birds that subsequently ate the lead shot you fired in your garden? Maybe none, maybe some. That is perhaps the bigger picture to bear in mind as regards live quarry shooting where the risks of lead shot dissemination cannot be contained - the approach of HSE has been zero risk in this respect - so if there are to be exemptions, what should be the cut off point be as regards the continuation of lead shot for live quarry shooting - and is it politically tenable to argue to continue to poison birds using some types of cartridges 'just because'? Some are lobbying the Government for a ban on ALL lead ammunition ASAP for recreational shooting regardless of the evidence or impacts on our sector, and if they are successful we might forget about another 5-6 years transition time. Food for thought.

Did you reply to that comment on SD? I don't recall you doing so. If you did not, why not? 

 

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

And as for the steel in .410" this from Gamebore was quoted on the other forum.

And those who say that steel .410" is available in the USA clearly have no idea of how much lead .410" USA made cartridges cost vis-a-vis the UK equivalent.

Imported steel USA made .410" would also likely be prohibitively expensive see below.

Lead loaded USA cartridges sell at a 70% price increase against UK made lead .410" equivalent ((Winchester lead 3" .410" are listed on Just Cartridges at £698 per 1,000 - Lyalvale 3" Magnum .410" are listed on Just Cartridges at £409 per 1,000).

And in any case steel loaded USA .410" may likely be outwith CIP pressure limits to be allowed to be sold here.

So the cheapest alternative is bismuth. At four times the price £1461 per 1,000 for .410" vs £409 per 1,000 for lead. (Both 3" .410" Magnum Lyalvale Express as priced at Just Cartridges).

Yet BASC will not argue for an exception for .410"

Reply from Gamebore.
Good Morning,
Thank you for your enquiry.
Unfortunately we have no plans to develop any .410 loads with Steel shot. As steel is lighter than lead, requiring the pellets to be two sizes larger, it is not possible to fit enough pellets inside the tube to make it a viable/effective load.
I’m very sorry to disappoint you with this.
Kind regards,
Lydia Abdelaoui

Gamebore

Good post thank you 

I honestly can’t believe the shooting organisation’s arnt lobbying for a dispensation for the small bore guns the 4.10 has always been the gateway entry point for juniors into the sport of shotgun shooting 

the staggering price of the non lead loads for the small bores will stop the youngsters from coming into the sport surely a 22 rimfire head weights about the same as a 4.10 shot load 

[Konor]

The whole idea that BASC would campaign for any proportionate resolution to the issue of lead shot use is a non starter. The rhetoric emanating from Conor O’Gorman in response to Enfieldspares 9mm rimfire/rat scenario clearly portrays him as someone who is quite comfortable to see the loss of the use of such handy tools despite the insignificant impact of discontinuing their use. The almost anthropomorphic concern about the numbers of birds potentially poisoned flies in the face of his latest  posted reams of study all of which fail to quantify any impact as a consequence of ingesting lead shot. Coupled with the idea that you should be grateful for what little time is left to enjoy the freedom to use lead shot inland again despite any evidence that doing so has any impact on game bird numbers this reply post could almost have been written by Chris Packham.

 It’s time BASC were called out for their failure to defend shooting against the unsubstantiated claims of the sports opponents and also more worryingly by its own representatives. Let’s see some value for money from these supposed “Voices of Shooting”  and have them put a bit more effort into our defence if they are to avoid being labelled not fit for purpose.

[Konor]

10 hours ago, Konor said:

10 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thank you for finally confirming this. 

It was never an issue  I have never stated that the lead shot voluntary transition prompted the Brexit UK REACH review. Your accusation is groundless . Perhaps consider apologising for yet more baseless claims. There are however far greater issues involved most of which you seem oblivious too. Still you seem quite happy to spend your time avoiding the real issues involved I see. Perhaps if you have clocked on at BASC you might find time to check out the points previously raised and answer some of the questions posed. Or maybe just put your feet up and turn a blind eye.

Edited 10 hours ago by

No apology?  I’m assuming your quest for any data quantifying lead ingestion impact caused you to overlook me mentioning the false accusations you made earlier and my request for an apology ,never mind tomorrow will be time enough. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

12 hours ago, Konor said:

Let’s see some value for money from these supposed “Voices of Shooting”  and have them put a bit more effort into our defence if they are to avoid being labelled not fit for purpose.

Investigations into the 2021 Plymouth shootings led to a series of reports issued by the Plymouth Senior coroner, mostly detailing the catastrophic failings of Devon and Cornwall police’s firearms licensing department, calling for national accredited training and a reform of firearms law.

Rather than focusing on the evidence of police failings in this case, anti-gun campaigners and local MP Luke Pollard latched onto suggestions for greater restrictions on shotguns. Mr Pollard even initiated a private members Bill in a failed bid to ban the keeping of pump-action shotguns a home.

The last government adopted a common-sense approach to this pressure, asserting that shotguns were already subject to significant controls that additional restrictions were unnecessary and would have a negative impact on their legitimate use.

BASC has successfully argued the case against knee-jerk ineffective changes in law around shotgun ownership and use for decades with successive governments. So, if the threatened consultation launches, we will again make our case but this time we really will need massive engagement and support from everyone participating in shooting. 

[Konor]

12 hours ago, Konor said:

No apology?  I’m assuming your quest for any data quantifying lead ingestion impact caused you to overlook me mentioning the false accusations you made earlier and my request for an apology ,never mind tomorrow will be time enough. 

 

[Konor]

33 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Investigations into the 2021 Plymouth shootings led to a series of reports issued by the Plymouth Senior coroner, mostly detailing the catastrophic failings of Devon and Cornwall police’s firearms licensing department, calling for national accredited training and a reform of firearms law.

Rather than focusing on the evidence of police failings in this case, anti-gun campaigners and local MP Luke Pollard latched onto suggestions for greater restrictions on shotguns. Mr Pollard even initiated a private members Bill in a failed bid to ban the keeping of pump-action shotguns a home.

The last government adopted a common-sense approach to this pressure, asserting that shotguns were already subject to significant controls that additional restrictions were unnecessary and would have a negative impact on their legitimate use.

BASC has successfully argued the case against knee-jerk ineffective changes in law around shotgun ownership and use for decades with successive governments. So, if the threatened consultation launches, we will again make our case but this time we really will need massive engagement and support from everyone participating in shooting. 

Is the campaigning BASC made opposing these proposed laws acknowledged as being the cause of their failure to reach the statute books ? I’m not disputing that BASC contributes to the protection of shooting sports but as is crystal clear from my posts I think they are doing a very poor job of handling the lead issue and your own contribution is the epitome of counter productivity.

 Back on topic Conor Buy or Sell ,if you check out the side by side section of the Guns and Equipment threads I’ve posted up some photographs. They illustrate and reflect my passion for the sport and the investment I have made as do the half dozen nice over and undersI own.. Mostly financed by overtime money and the odd one passed on to me they have not come into my ownership without an element of saving. Perhaps like many on this forum your guns reflect the level of passion you have for the sport. Maybe you would consider sharing a photo or photos of your favourite guns to illustrate your own passion or as I know doing so is not always convenient let us know what your present favourite gun is.

Edited February 25 by Konor
Addition

[Conor O'Gorman]

8 minutes ago, Konor said:

Is the campaigning BASC made opposing these proposed laws acknowledged as being the cause of their failure to reach the statute books ? I’m not disputing that BASC contributes to the protection of shooting sports but as is crystal clear from my posts I think they are doing a very poor job of handling the lead issue and your own contribution is the epitome of counter productivity.

Yes the proposal was dropped from the 2023 firearms licensing controls consultation after strong representations from BASC and BSSC and supportive MPs. However, the Home Office wants the proposal resurrected so there may be a consultation ahead. 

[Konor]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes the proposal was dropped from the 2023 firearms licensing controls consultation after strong representations from BASC and BSSC and supportive MPs. However, the Home Office wants the proposal resurrected so there may be a consultation ahead. 

So contributing rather than sole credit.

Apology regarding your previous false accusations???

Favourite gun at present ?

Where’s the tumbleweed emoji when you need it 🤣

Edited February 25 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

So contributing rather than sole credit.

Apology regarding your previous false accusations???

Favourite gun at present ?

Where’s the tumbleweed emoji when you need it 🤣

BASC has also been successfully fighting lead bans for decades much to the frustration of the antis. Perhaps its time to redirect your time and energy supporting rather than mocking me and knocking BASC. Here is what BASC stands for.

https://basc.org.uk/what-basc-stands-for/

And the video below is about who we are. That very much incudes you.

 

 

[Konor]

5 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC has also been successfully fighting lead bans for decades much to the frustration of the antis. Perhaps its time to redirect your time and energy supporting rather than mocking me and knocking BASC. Here is what BASC stands for.

https://basc.org.uk/what-basc-stands-for/

And the video below is about who we are. That very much incudes you.

 

 

I know it includes me Conor. My worry is to what extent it includes you.

 The thrust of my posting is not to mock you and I have posted on a few occasions and in personal messages that I bear you personally no malice.

 My posts are to highlight my opposition to your opinions and to question the data you publish here that supposedly supports those opinions.

 My belief is that your posts are politically motivated and aspire to create a picture that does not exist in order to manipulate shooters opinion. You post little if anything to convince me otherwise. You refuse to engage on numerous occasions if you think doing so may harm the case you are putting forward. I believe your opinions regarding lead shot use do not stand up to scrutiny and so I feel obliged to post those concerns.

You wrongfully accused me earlier in this thread regarding the voluntary transition and the REACH link and yet you do not have the manners to apologise despite prompting. Even that I do not take personally as every post potentially reveals the character behind the poster and in failing to apologise you reveal yours.
 You have also failed to reply to my “ what’s your favourite gun” question perhaps fearing that an AYA Yeoman or cheap Baikal will somehow indicate a lesser level of passion for the sport or alternatively a Boss over and under would result in accusations of being detached from the average shooter. In reality it is the reluctance to share that answer that causes me to have mistrust and when coupled with the nature of your posts leads me to question both your commitment to fieldsports and the level of your drive to protect them.

[Sweet11-87]

value is a personal thing and everyone has their line in the sand, red and green flags. and in the end it comes down to justifying it to yourself.

id hesitate buy a gun i love for a few grand that id have for life but will happily buy the equivalent amount of "meh" £100 guns and play with them once or twice and give them away. went to the shooting show wanting/needing a thermal, found a good deal and couldn't open my wallet, spent said money on a benelli faster than i could get me ticket out. just how it goes i cant explain my reasoning or though process just a gut feeling. and it worked out because i found a better deal on a thermal so ive had my cake and ate it.

i know lads who wont buy a good shotgun to shoot every weekend but buy the best glass on the market to stalk deer half a dozen times a decade.

and i know lads who think its a fool game to buy guns at this time given what youve mentioned but will go on holiday twice a year when the money you spend is guaranteed to be gone and in the past the second you touch down back in blighty.

 

 

edit:

my 2 pence on the derailed topic above for what its worth, im pro BASC i make no bones about it, however i am troubled by the minor transition in wording BASC have been using regarding the lead ban. even after the voluntary transition announcement it used to carry a "no scientific proof exists" undertone now it carries a "it MIGHT be having a detrimental effect" i cant put my finger on it but a shift has for sure happened in the BASC magazine i get through the door, as far as im aware no definitive evidence has come forward  outside of wetland and wildfowl so the goal posts haven't changed  yet i feel were giving ground almost cushioning the blow and that worries me i admit.

Edited February 25 by Sweet11-87

[Konor]

I’m in complete agreement with your last paragraph Sweet1187.

 Regarding the gun cost /affordability I’d rather have a well looked after gun in great condition that suited me than a neglected gun worth ten times the amount. As an example I’ve a great condition AYA number 3 magnum, I was offered a while back a high grade Browning B25 in poor condition obviously not cared for. I wouldn’t swap my AYA for it given the opportunity.

[Konor]

On 24/02/2025 at 12:02, Konor said:

No one is saying that the voluntary transition away from lead shot prompted the post Brexit UK REACH review of lead ammunition

 

On 24/02/2025 at 12:38, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thank you for finally confirming this. 

 

On 24/02/2025 at 12:48, Konor said:

It was never an issue  I have never stated that the lead shot voluntary transition prompted the Brexit UK REACH review. Your accusation is groundless . Perhaps consider apologising for yet more baseless claims

Far off topic I know but posted to illustrate a point . Still no apology of course that would involve conceding and that apparently is not a word in the political dictionary

[Konor]

19 hours ago, Konor said:

On 24/02/2025 at 12:02, Konor said:

ammunition

 

On 24/02/2025 at 12:38, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thank you for finally confirming this. 

 

On 24/02/2025 at 12:48, Konor said:

It was never an issue  I have never stated that the lead shot voluntary transition prompted the Brexit UK REACH review. Your accusation is groundless . Perhaps consider apologising for yet more baseless claims

Far off topic I know but posted to illustrate a point . Still no apology of course that would involve conceding and that apparently is not a word in the political dictionary

It seems manners maketh the man or not as is the case here.

Edited Thursday at 07:26 by Konor