My local gunshop got stung

[OldBill]

Baliffs can sieze firearms if specified by an order, or if they hold a ticket. Otherwise it's a no no.

[Mungler]

1. civil matter

2. unless there is a retention of title clause clause (Romalpa clause) [click] in play then title to the gun appears to me to have actually passed

3. shop owner's legal redress is a debt action.

 

When the police say we won't get involved because it's a civil matter, that's not because they are too busy eating pies and speed trapping, it is actually because it is a civil matter and no criminal offence has been committed.

 

The simple solution to matters such as this is would be for the shop not to release goods until they have been paid in full, which of course is the conventional approach to doing business.

[webber]

Does that mean that I was right then Mungler?

 

webber

[Mungler]

Yep

[pin]

Have to say I am surprised but in the face of expert advice obviously accept I was wrong.

 

Seems odd that you can go into a shop, take goods and then have no intention of paying and yet commit no criminal offense.

[Guest The Outlaw]

Have to say I am surprised but in the face of expert advice obviously accept I was wrong.

 

Seems odd that you can go into a shop, take goods and then have no intention of paying and yet commit no criminal offense.

Proving the intent could be the thing here Pin, the shop would have to prove he had no intention of paying.

 

Tony

[al4x]

Have to say I am surprised but in the face of expert advice obviously accept I was wrong.

 

Seems odd that you can go into a shop, take goods and then have no intention of paying and yet commit no criminal offense.

 

you would have to proove the no intention to pay, there was a verbal agreement that he would pay the shop owner at a later date. Obviously this has been reneged on.

 

Oh and if a CCJ was obtained the baliffs wouldn't need to go after the firearm they could remove whatever they liked that was easy to sell to re-pay the debt plus court costs plus fees. get the shop owner to send a seven day letter to the guy requesting payment or it goes to court then if that is no good then go to

 

 

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

 

you can fill in all the details to submit the claim online and watch its progress. The only downside is if he has no money or assets then it can still be difficult to get the money back,

[Mungler]

County Court Bailiffs are as useful as choccy teapots.

 

If the debt is big enough and we think we can make a physical recovery we will use the High Court Sheriffs - they don't **** about.

 

We normally go for bankruptcy / winding up or a charging order if there is a property and equity in it - if the debts above £5k it sits there attracting 8% simple interest.

[al4x]

In this case if he's in the fire brigade then the threat of a ccj should get the money back IMHO

[Catamong]

In this case if he's in the fire brigade then the threat of a ccj should get the money back IMHO

 

But why should it, how is that going to affect his ability to climb ladders and put out fires..??

 

I can just see the Station Officer saying "You can't attend that call, 'cos you've now got a CCJ against you".

 

As is often the case on this forum, we've all been given only one version of events to decide on who's right or wrong, there may well be other facts as yet undisclosed that we know nothing about, so it's wrong to jump to any automatic conclusion that the County Court will find against him.

 

Cat.

[The Great Cornholio]

This would have never happened if the Kray Brothers were still about!

Admittedly the gunshop owner would have to repair Ron & Reg's guns for nothing & get the odd slap for a late payment.

BUT the twins would not take kindly to this "friend" making of without paying. He would be payed a visit within a week.

Unless of course he was a friend of the Richardson Bros. In which case they would "let it go this time"

[Biffo1262]

This would have never happened if the Kray Brothers were still about!

Admittedly the gunshop owner would have to repair Ron & Reg's guns for nothing & get the odd slap for a late payment.

BUT the twins would not take kindly to this "friend" making of without paying. He would be payed a visit within a week.

Unless of course he was a friend of the Richardson Bros. In which case they would "let it go this time"

 

 

Right if he is a serving Fire Officer and the dealer knows which brigade he belongs to he writes a letter to The Chief Officer of that brigade by name and that is important otherwise it may not get to him personally. He also does a copy to the Personnel Officer of that brigade. Now whilst The Fire Service Discipline Regulations are no longer in force that is a good and also a bad thing. Under the old discipline regulations he would have been charged with perhaps, Falsehood, Criminal Conduct and or Direputable Conduct. The threat of this would be serious but not necessarily cost him his job but he would be likely to pay up pronto than go through these rather rigourous proceedings. However, the Fire Service are now subject the normal Employment Laws and should he be found guilty in any proceeds he can be dismissed through Gross Misconduct. If dismissed he has to appeal through the normal channels first with his employer and then an Industrial Tribunal IF granted one. If a trubunal finds that he WAS unfairly dismissed they do not have the power to give him his job back whereas under the old regulatations he could appeal to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister who was his ultimate employer and did have that power.

 

If this man has any sense at all he will heed the advice from his Fire Brigades Union Representitive which will be to settle the debt and quickly

 

As an aside I think this would be classed as a civil debt or perhaps fraud if he had no intention of ever paying, rather than theft as the dealer willingly handed over the gun. In other words they had both entered into a contract which has been breached by the buyer. Other that if anyone directly concerned with the case wants to PM me I may be able to help via another channel open to me.

Edited January 15, 2008 by Biffo1262

[Guest The Outlaw]

If the shop have used common sense they will have sent all corespondance by recorded/ reg post so he or someone at his address has to sign for the letters, this would be of help to thier claim for thier money back.

Tbh it is a bit irresponsible imo to let anyone, even a long standing customer leave without paying these days.

His local police and the fire service would love to know about this I'm sure as it is obtaining goods by deception and I would stich the ****** up for it big time.

Tony

Outlaw

I am tempted to agree with your comments, but fail to see where the Fire Service are involved in this one?

webber

The scamer is a firefighter and this wont look gook if it went to his HQ, would you trust a scammer not to fill his boots if a jewllers were to be the victim of a fire?

Tony

Outlaw

My error, I missed the post about chummy being a fireman. However I feel that his employers could only take any action subsequent to a satisfactory prosecution for theft.

webber

A shadow of doubt cast uppon him could scupper any chance of promotion though so the threat could be good enough to get thier money out of him.

Tony

This would have never happened if the Kray Brothers were still about!

Admittedly the gunshop owner would have to repair Ron & Reg's guns for nothing & get the odd slap for a late payment.

BUT the twins would not take kindly to this "friend" making of without paying. He would be payed a visit within a week.

Unless of course he was a friend of the Richardson Bros. In which case they would "let it go this time"

Right if he is a serving Fire Officer and the dealer knows which brigade he belongs to he writes a letter to The Chief Officer of that brigade by name and that is important otherwise it may not get to him personally. He also does a copy to the Personnel Officer of that brigade. Now whilst The Fire Service Discipline Regulations are no longer in force that is a good and also a bad thing. Under the old discipline regulations he would have been charged with perhaps, Falsehood, Criminal Conduct and or Direputable Conduct. The threat of this would be serious but not necessarily cost him his job but he would be likely to pay up pronto than go through these rather rigourous proceedings. However, the Fire Service are now subject the normal Employment Laws and should he be found guilty in any proceeds he can be dismissed through Gross Misconduct. If dismissed he has to appeal through the normal channels first with his employer and then an Industrial Tribunal IF granted one. If a trubunal finds that he WAS unfairly dismissed they do not have the power to give him his job back whereas under the old regulatations he could appeal to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister who was his ultimate employer and did have that power.

If this man has any sense at all he will heed the advice from his Fire Brigades Union Representitive which will be to settle the debt and quickly

As an aside I think this would be classed as a civil debt or perhaps fraud if he had no intention of ever paying, rather than theft as the dealer willingly handed over the gun. In other words they had both entered into a contract which has been breached by the buyer. Other that if anyone directly concerned with the case wants to PM me I may be able to help via another channel open to me.

 

I believe the element of trust is in place for this sort of thing, as Catamong said we do need to hear both side before we cast judgement on him, but basicly Biffio 1262 has confirmed what I have said all along.

The brigade have to be able to trust thier staff, hence all the checks I had to do to join.

 

Tony

[Rob G]

Like i said in a previous post,he WAS a friend of the family.He has had things before and paid for them at a later date no problem.I know him personaly and wouldn't trust him in any way.He owes a lot of money to a few people i know,he bounced a cheque on his brother in law for work they had done.I'm afraid he is one of those people who live a champagne life on a lager wage.All his debts have finally caught up with him

[Biffo1262]

Like i said in a previous post,he WAS a friend of the family.He has had things before and paid for them at a later date no problem.I know him personaly and wouldn't trust him in any way.He owes a lot of money to a few people i know,he bounced a cheque on his brother in law for work they had done.I'm afraid he is one of those people who live a champagne life on a lager wage.All his debts have finally caught up with him

 

 

If such is the case and there are many like it, it will catch him up and he'll end up being declared bankrupt. If that happens your dealer mate is unlikely to see most of his money. Tell him to act now as I've advised and quickly otherwise he will be just one of a long queue holding his hand out to the Receiver. As for the checks on joining, sadly there is such a shortage of retained applicants (part-time) that, in my experience the rigorous checks applied to wholetime applicants aren't applied as vigorously as they could be. The employer will deny that of course, but it's just human nature and sheer necessity when faced with a serious manning problem in retained areas. That isn't to say the vast majority of these guys aren't as dedicated as wholetimers, they are and in some cases more so. Recent tragic events in Warwickshire have demonstrated just that. As in all walks of life there are the good and not good amongst all of us.

 

Steve

Edited January 15, 2008 by Biffo1262

[Catamong]

This would have never happened if the Kray Brothers were still about!

Admittedly the gunshop owner would have to repair Ron & Reg's guns for nothing & get the odd slap for a late payment.

BUT the twins would not take kindly to this "friend" making of without paying. He would be payed a visit within a week.

Unless of course he was a friend of the Richardson Bros. In which case they would "let it go this time"

 

 

Right if he is a serving Fire Officer and the dealer knows which brigade he belongs to he writes a letter to The Chief Officer of that brigade by name and that is important otherwise it may not get to him personally. He also does a copy to the Personnel Officer of that brigade. Now whilst The Fire Service Discipline Regulations are no longer in force that is a good and also a bad thing. Under the old discipline regulations he would have been charged with perhaps, Falsehood, Criminal Conduct and or Direputable Conduct. The threat of this would be serious but not necessarily cost him his job but he would be likely to pay up pronto than go through these rather rigourous proceedings. However, the Fire Service are now subject the normal Employment Laws and should he be found guilty in any proceeds he can be dismissed through Gross Misconduct. If dismissed he has to appeal through the normal channels first with his employer and then an Industrial Tribunal IF granted one. If a trubunal finds that he WAS unfairly dismissed they do not have the power to give him his job back whereas under the old regulatations he could appeal to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister who was his ultimate employer and did have that power.

 

If this man has any sense at all he will heed the advice from his Fire Brigades Union Representitive which will be to settle the debt and quickly

 

As an aside I think this would be classed as a civil debt or perhaps fraud if he had no intention of ever paying, rather than theft as the dealer willingly handed over the gun. In other words they had both entered into a contract which has been breached by the buyer. Other that if anyone directly concerned with the case wants to PM me I may be able to help via another channel open to me.

 

Very impressive, but absolute cobblers, no Employer would want to get involved in what is quite simply , a Civil, (NOT CRIMINAL) matter.

 

Cat.