BASC selling off the family silver.

[starlight32]

This is a very similar debate to one a few weeks ago in this forum. BASC in promoting shooting and encouraging more people from home and abroad to shoot can only have one effect to those of us who already hold shooting rights in a small island like the UK.

 

INCREASING THE COST OF RENTING SHOOTING.

 

 

I know this will happen in time anyway , but I do object to my BASC subs being used to push up the cost of my shooting . If an enterprising farmer can maximise his shooting rights then thats up to him , but its not my shooting organisations role to promote any policy that will increase my shooting rents.

 

In East Anglia there is very little land apart from nature reserves that is not shot over , and this shot over land is already attracting the attentions of shooters from abroad. I read on another shooting forum where a group of Italian shooters have out bid local shooters in the Broads. The affect of this policy of BASC can only make this sort of problem worse.

 

This particular Italian just happens to be a multi,multi millionaire and is buying the land for prices which would make you cringe!!!

 

I am a committee member of a local wildfowling club who has land next to his, he excercising his right of spending his own money which none of us can compete with!!!!

[David BASC]

Many good points here guys, and a sensible debate in many ways. Glad to see a new member join the forum and debate (Graylag) Please give some more info on how BASC failed to help when your club called, I am sure many on here would love to here the detail, and of course BASC’s reply!

 

I can assure you that it is not BASC policy to price people out of shooting- why would it be? It makes no sense at all does it, think about it. I think what Anser is seeing here is not an effect of any BASC policy but the classic effect of supply and demand. And remember that the influence of the Scottish Tourism Group does not extend to East Anglia!

 

I have said it before and been criticised on here for saying it- if you want to protect your shooting get in tied up in a formal agreement. OK if you don’t want to establish a formal agreement with your landlord fine- many of you will trawl out the numerous reasons why you do not want to, fine OK it is your choice – but without a formal agreement you have nothing – NOTHING – to back you up when someone else comes along and nabs your free shooting for a few quid. Moan all you like but this will not get your shooting back (and I speak from personal experience on this one!)

 

I think that keeping the debates open to BASC and non BASC members is obviously the way to do it. But of course members of BASC have every right to raise concerns directly with BASC – and they will always be responded to – we will not ignore any member I can assure you of that. But we do not want to turn PW into a ‘BASC only forum’ surely.

 

I am surprised that such a relatively small project involving Scottish Tourism should attract such a massive response from you guys. I am not saying it is wrong – just surprising. No one for example had picked up on the other joint project BASC was involved in on in Scotland for example, snares, much more important to the average Joe shooter surely.

 

Cranfield, yes I know you posted a reply after the ‘flaming’ one and I posted my comment on this yesterday in full command of the facts as I saw them. I still think the initial response was OTT. I have been on the forum for years and know where most bits are; this chap was brand new (to the forum and possibly to shooting) and probably did not know the ‘form’ as it were. Doubtless many on here do much for new shooters and this should be applauded. Similarly should we not all help new members to the forum and guide them to the correct not berate them for not knowing – that is my point. But if you think I have got it wrong – fine we can agree to disagree.

 

David

[Jimbo57]

I am surprised that such a relatively small project involving Scottish Tourism should attract such a massive response from you guys. I am not saying it is wrong – just surprising.

 

I suppose that I just got fired up by the condemnation of BASC for this on the Wildfowling BB. Although I am not really a wildfowler I made the link between foreign shooters and all the shooting opportunities that we rough shooters were losing to them.

 

I think what Anser is seeing here is not an effect of any BASC policy but the classic effect of supply and demand.

 

Is that not the point? Why should BASC be acting directly to increase the demand and directly cause a reduction in the amount of available shooting for local shooters and an increase in the price?

[David BASC]

Yet again you target BASC and not all the others involved!

 

I have offered guidance on keeping your shooting on this forum and been told that many of you are not prepared to set up formal agreements with your land lords. If you don’t then that is your choice but you risk loosing your shooting.

 

So over to you, you do not like the fact that we are assisting with Scottish Tourism, fine, you think this will loose you your shooting, I doubt it but if that is your view ,fine.

 

What do you specifically want to see BASC doing in Scotland to help develop and protect shooting?

 

And don’t say ‘stop encouraging foreign shooters’- that will not make much difference one way or the other- Scotland has always had a massive influx of 'foreigners' including the English, coming to Scotland to shoot and fish.

 

 

David

[Cranfield]

Perhaps in some areas where there could be seen to be a conflict of interest among/ with its members, the BASC should take a neutral stance and not get involved.

I'm sure Scottish Tourism will flourish without the help of the BASC.

[anser2]

First I must state I am a BASC member and have been for 40 years, I am a staunch supporter of BASC and have been an active helper in the past giving my own time for free on a number of projects.

 

Pirate , I for one cannot afford the sort of prices shooters from overseas are prepared to pay. So what you are saying is its just too bad that a local person loses his shooting to money rich continental guns.

 

Big Sam you obviously have a lot more money to spend than most if you think £50 + is a small price to pay for a days pigeon shooting.

 

David BASC we have said this before , if may not be BASCs policy to increase the price of renting policy , but in a world of supply and demand with too many shooters chasing too little shooting , that is the effect of that policy. As for getting your shooting tied up in a formal agrement , that’s fine if you already rent the shooting , but few farmers want to get their free pigeon tied up in aggrements. I suggested this to one of my farmers and he said Ok , but how much are you prepared to pay for that agreement. So by following your advice I would have to pay for something I now get for free , indeed not just free , but the farmer supplies me with about 1\2 the shells I use and allows me to claim vat back on the shells I buy. But in return for this I have to respond to his calls for help no matter what day of the week it is.

 

Quote “am surprised that such a relatively small project involving Scottish Tourism should attract such a massive response from you guys.†Well perhaps it would be a good idea to bring it to the BASC management attention the strength of feeling their policy has with sections of its members.

 

Quote “Yet again you target BASC and not all the others involved!â€. The reason we target BASC is because its our own organisation and our own money is being spent on this policy.

 

Quote “So over to you, you do not like the fact that we are assisting with Scottish Tourism, fine, you think this will loose you your shooting, I doubt it but if that is your view fineâ€.

 

That sounds very much as though if you do not care about the members feelings.

 

Quote “What do you specifically want to see BASC doing in Scotland to help develop and protect shooting?

 

Not living in Scotland I cant offer an opinion , but while I accept that it needs protecting I doubt if rough \ vermin\ wildfowling needs developing at all. It certainly does not need developing in East Anglia.

 

Rob Baker

Edited March 11, 2008 by anser2

[Pirate]

Hi Anser2: Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. Anyone with shooting to sell will except Sterling!

 

Sadly, that's the way shooting is going, same as everything else! Can the locals afford to stay in the same hotel as you do when you go abroad?

 

Should I expect someone to subsidise a Jaguar for me, or a house in a village because of 'City money' pushing prices up, of course not.

 

We all want paying for our services, usually, as much as the market will bare. Those who can afford to 'give away' in my book, are very privileged.

 

It may not be what we as shooters want, but it is I'm afraid, the way things are, or are going.

 

Supply and demand, simple as that, and no amount of shouting or moaning will alter that, only paying the piper!. Put yourself in the shoot owners position, would you expect the best price you could get?

 

Pirate:

[Pinkfooty]

Yet again you target BASC and not all the others involved!

 

I have offered guidance on keeping your shooting on this forum and been told that many of you are not prepared to set up formal agreements with your land lords. If you don’t then that is your choice but you risk loosing your shooting.

 

So over to you, you do not like the fact that we are assisting with Scottish Tourism, fine, you think this will loose you your shooting, I doubt it but if that is your view ,fine.

 

What do you specifically want to see BASC doing in Scotland to help develop and protect shooting?

 

And don’t say ‘stop encouraging foreign shooters’- that will not make much difference one way or the other- Scotland has always had a massive influx of 'foreigners' including the English, coming to Scotland to shoot and fish.

 

 

David

 

Hi David,

 

Obviously the last thing that I want to do is have a disagreement with a member of BASC staff in public and I do appreciate the way that you unfailingly "fly the flag" on this Forum.

 

So may I just make a couple of general observation upon what you said:

 

"I have offered guidance on keeping your shooting on this forum and been told that many of you are not prepared to set up formal agreements with your land lords."

 

It really is not that easy. Members who have "pest control" agreements with individual farmers are in no position to insist on a written agreement. The best they can hope for is "written permission" that they can show to the police if they are challenged for shooting on the farm. There are half a dozen other shooters willing and able to take over a farm if the pest control on it becomes vacant and the last thing a farmer will do is enter into any written agreement about it unless there is a lot of money involved (e.g. from a sporting agent). Financial disclosure to the taxman is an obvious issue.

 

"And don’t say ‘stop encouraging foreign shooters’- that will not make much difference one way or the other- Scotland has always had a massive influx of 'foreigners'"

 

If it makes no difference, why devote a full week of a staff member to it and issue a press release? Actually I agree and said as much to the Scottish Committee. I am much more concerned about the negative message that it gives to members and prospective members. When recruitment and retention are such live issues, why shoot ourselves in the foot unnecessarily? On the "always had a massive influx of foreigners" point, that is true to an extent - but previously it was mainly for grouse shooting and salmon fishing; that has swung hugely towards goose and pigeon shooting, i.e. right into the field where our members have traditionally found their own sport.

"Yet again you target BASC and not all the others involved!"

 

As Anser2 said, that's because we are BASC members. But it goes further than that. The other organisations involved have a remit that is either much more widely directed towards countryside matters or more closely targeted on tourism. BASC is neither. Our remit is to protect the shooting of our members. But you didn't need me to tell you that.

 

Maybe we can have a chat about it when I am down at the Mill on Thursday.

 

Regards,

 

Eric

[anser2]

Pirate , much of what you say in true , and if a farmer can make a buck out of shooting then thats his bussness , but my objection is my money being used by my organisation following a policy that will have the result of encouraging farmers to rase my shooting rents. Thats not what I pay my subs for!

[purdey03]

can we have a link

[Cranfield]

can we have a link

Post 7, page 1.

[Pirate]

Hi Anser2:

 

If the outcome of the BASC's involvement with the Scottish Country Sports Tourism Group, would be to put shooting in the UK beyond the pocket of the shooter, I would be hard pushed to get in the front of the queue to cancel my membership. That is not what I want my subs spent on either.

 

But I do think however, if looking at the bigger picture, a little collateral damage may sadly have to be born, to provide the shooting, and the shooting community in the UK, protection from rack and ruin by lack of sustainable income.

 

Pirate:

[anser2]

Pirate , so it’s a case of I am alright Jack I can afford my higher shooting rents and to bad to those who cant ( Collateral damage ).

 

This is just part of a larger policy encouraging farmers to make the most of their shooting resource. That means making money out of their shooting . As I have already said I cant object to a farmer doing that , but I do not want my organisation having a policy that raises shooting rents.

[Cranfield]

Hi Anser2:

 

But I do think however, if looking at the bigger picture, a little collateral damage may sadly have to be born, to provide the shooting, and the shooting community in the UK, protection from rack and ruin by lack of sustainable income.

 

Pirate:

 

I am not sure what this means.

What "rack and ruin" is the UK shooting community facing by "lack of sustainable income" ?

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

Thanks again.

 

Many points here so I will pick just a few to add comment on.

 

I certainly am not uncaring about shooting and member’s opinion and I am sorry if I have given that impression in one of my posts- I was simply trying to say that I accept there will be a difference of opinion on some issues.

 

I think the UK shooting economy is in good heart generally and certainly not facing rack and ruin – but we are looking at significant increased in food and fuel prices , this will reduce disposable income and will have a knock on effect on all leisure activities.

 

As we can all see from parts of this forum, there are many out there who are still looking for shooting, and BASC will keep operating the GoShooting website and will keep trying to generate shooting opportunities though our clubs, syndicates, farmers, sporting agents and other shooting groups and organisations. We will keep offering guidance to our members, and others, on how they can find their own shooting, and we will keep working to ensure fair firearm law. After all shooting is a three legged stool – you need all three legs for the whole thing to stand up:

 

Something to shoot with

Somewhere to shoot

Something to shoot at

 

BUT most importantly shooting must be and must remain inclusive and not exclusive. Of course there will always be very expensive shooting, but there must also be access to low cost shooting. Many of us will have started our live quarry shooting on pigeons and rabbits, how many of us would have been able (or wanted to) start live quarry shooting on Pheasant or partridge?

 

We must all work together to keep open access to low cost shooting- not just BASC but ALL of us. So how can we do this? We are protective of our bits of permission and rightly so they are hard won. So what is the answer?

 

 

Best wishes

 

David

[anser2]

David , The answer is simple ...........

 

Stop promoting shooting tourism. The lower the demand for shooting ( within reason ) the lower shooting rents will be. And remember BASCs first obligation is to its members not tourist boards , farmers or shooting agents.

 

Its been mentioned BASC had a poll asking a sample ( how many i wonder ) if its members if they wanted more shooting and of course we all would say yes to that question. But how many realised the potential effect that might have on our existing shooting rents. Very few I suspect. Without sufficent debate such questions are very loaded and should not be used in BASC policy. Perhaps you would like to run a poll on here and see what the answer to that question is now. Perhaps along the lines of ..................

 

So are you in favour of taking the risk that there might be changes in the cost of shooting opportunities if BASC follows a policy of promoting shooting to Foreign shooters , farmers and shooting agents.

[ferretman]

I need to find out more about this before I comment on a public Forum

 

Yes BASC is involved in promoting "country sports tourism" but I am not sure it is being paid for from members' subscriptions.

 

But I am worried that UK shooters eventually lose out because overseas visitors push prices up and reduce availability to the resident sportsman.

 

I suppose my bottom line is that it is not the job of BASC to promote shooting for foreign visitors. It is the job of BASC to protect the sport (or what remains of it) for our member

[webber]

Lets try and break down the situation into understandable chuncks.

 

BASC Scotland has joined forces with other organisations to promote shooting in Scotland.

 

From what I can gather the body is at least part funded by government money,BASC have provided some manpower.

 

Would the organisation exist without the involvement of BASC; I think probably. BASC would then have no involvement or say in the groups activities.

 

Would BASC have attended the exhibition in Germany on its own accord; probably not.

 

Did BASC gain anything from attending the exhibition? I feel that it probably did. BASC membership is not exclusive to UK residents, and I believe has several thousand foreign members, who obviously contribute to BASCs coffers, yet make little demand on its services. So, for me, if by being at the exhibition BASC was able to ride there on the back of the tourism body, and whilst there promote BASC and its membership benefits then thats fine by me.

 

Foreign guns have travelled to Britain to shoot for many decades, and an industry has evolved to cater to their requirements. Fortunatley I have not noticed any impact on my ability to either obtain or afford the shooting that I love. It would never cross my mind to part with £1000 for a days shooting, but there are those out there who will pay such sums and more.

 

I stated in a previous post on this thread that I would be disapointed to find that my subscriptions had been spent in support of private enterprise whom should be conducting their own marketing activities and paying for them. My view has not altered, but my opinion is now that BASC Scotland may have used the tourism organisation as vehicle to promote the activities of BASC.

 

Would many of the estates in Scotland exist in their current form without the input from foreign guns and rods? I really doubt it.

 

webber

[David BASC]

Rob,

 

Yes we wrote to all members in part of our South West region about 18 months ago – both individual members and members within clubs. The exact size of the mailing was 2047 individual members and 51 affiliated clubs / syndicates.

 

I accept that if you ask someone do you want more shooting, the answer probably is yes, but the question we asked was what type of shooting.

 

The objective was to establish what forms of shooting were in the greatest demand, and from this how we could help our members secure more shooting – something which for your posts you would support I think?

 

For example many of our clubs and syndicates were willing to share shooting- they wanted to concentrate on game shooting but were happy to have other BASC groups look after pigeon and rabbit shooting for example. This is a project that I plan to roll out across the UK, and help more BASC member get some shooting. A good idea? I think so.

 

BUT as there is only so much land that can be shot over, we will encourage our members to share shooting with other BASC members, even to form an affiliated club for example.

 

You have made your point very clear about tourism, and I appreciate you feedback, and that of others.

 

I don’t think sporting agents need shooting promoted to them! But we do try to keep a list of Sporting Agents on the GoShooting site as some people will want to use this facility to book shooting.

 

Yes we will keep promoting shooting to farmers- in the context of free pest control from local shooters, and working in cooperation with game shoots to share shooting.

 

I understand that bits of my posts are being copied onto another forum, I hope that they are being copied in full context, and not just edited highlights cut and pasted out of context!

 

David

[al4x]

do you think syndicates will be willing to give away vermin shooting though David?

 

Pretty much every one I know uses the vermin shooting to reward beaters and helpers.

[Pirate]

I am not sure what this means.

What "rack and ruin" is the UK shooting community facing by "lack of sustainable income" ?

 

 

‘Protecting’ is somewhat different to’ facing’.

The whole of the UK economy is slowing down, and more and more people will be feeling the pinch, including the shooting communities.

 

Myself, and lots of shooting friends, are already being almost ‘priced’ out of shooting, by simply having to prioritise, and several shooting estates will have no doubt been saved by ‘foreign’ money’.

 

It is after all, with the cost of shooting, being more than the value of the quarry, a luxury!

 

Surely, any income that will help ‘protect’ the thousands of jobs in the Scottish shooting industry, and rural communities, should be actively sourced.

 

Not forgetting, many of the shooting, and country sport communities in Scotland, will be BASC members, and entitled to representation.

 

 

Pirate:

[Holland&Holland]

Hey a subject that is about ME !

 

Yes i am from the "evil" other side of the channel and i am after youre shoot.... (comment made with a certain ammount of irony ! :blink: )

 

 

I think that is so untrue. I think the reason for all the anger is that most hunters i see on this subject here still like to get there shooting for free or get paid for there shooting / hunting activities. Well i can get you out of youre dreams, that will change. It already changed overhere and will eventually in the UK. Farmers and landowners will charge for the shooting and hunting rights in future (and are not interested in just pestcontrol, ther has to be money at he side). It is just about economics with a product that gets less available due to law, environmentalist, urban planning, number of "clients" etc.... Even the most kind farmer will charge you in the end i think. Not just in the Netherlands but in every european country you will have to pay for the rights to shoot over land. I pay 7 pounds a hectare every year (and i shoot over 110 hectares ). So it is not the foreign hunters who will make this happen but society as an whole. Hope you get my point because it is difficult to explain as english is not my native language.

New to the flock from Canada has some other good points on that. B)

 

Apart from that i like coming over to the UK and hunt and shoot. It is all about the experience and being with friends in a different environment. Cannot see what is wrong with that, sorry. If a landowner rather has me a certain period of the year then the local boy you have to talk to the farmer and not blame me.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Holland&Holland

[CharlieT]

David

 

Whilst I appreciate that many if not all would love to have more shooting and BASC to their credit are addressing the situation I personally feel that as al4x has also sad game shooting interests are very unlikely to pass on vermin control and pigeon shooting.

 

Every shoot I know of would not entertain doing so. As has been said it is done in house by the keepers or as a reward to those who help out on the shoot. I would therefore suggest that this effort and expenditure may be better directed elsewhere. However as you see the complete picture you are obviously convinced that game shooting can and does pass on pest control. Is this so ?.

 

I welcome the BASC's latest initiative in promoting free pest control by local shooters and I was pleased to see the amended wording of your adverts. Perhaps members would prefer BASC to lobby the NFU a little more rather than tourism ?.

[David BASC]

Al4x / Charlie, Certainly many syndicates offer the pigeon and rabbit shooting to beaters- mine included (I am happy to say as I am a beater – can’t afford game shooting!)

 

However, my syndicate, for example, is looking for someone else to help with the fox shooting (we have loads!). Before you make offers guys this is in the hands of the game management team of the shoot not me, I am only the Secretary!

 

But some syndicates are prepared to have others share shooting, not all by any stretch, but there are some out there. As and when I uncover them I will be promoting them through the GoShooting site.

 

NFU are a key partner when it comes to shooting – and we must keep building and developing our relationship with them, that is part of the reason why I advertise in the NFU farmer members magazine for example.

 

David

[anser2]

Holland and Holland. I have no problem with you as an individual comming over to the UK to shoot and I know that in the future we are all going to have to pay for out shooting. I just do not like our own organisation encouraging it and hasening that day forward.