Whoop de do - HMR :-)

[Evilv]

Big smile on my face today when I sighted in the Winchester 9417 and tried it on a few rabbits.

 

The gun is very handy, light and pointable. Easy to shoot offhand and to hit 50 yard rabbits right on the nut with a snap shot as they run in from the corn as long as they stop for a second. I know 50 yards isn't the caliber's forte, but I took what chances I had. I stuck a little scope on it that I had lying around - a 4x32 Nikko, cheepo jobby. Not great for 130 yards, but I've left my big scope on the CZ. The rifle wouldn't suit a great big 12x50, in my opinion. Anyway, it's early days. A bit more effort on the sighting in would help, I just set it up a centimeter high at 50 yards and got cracking on the conies. More care in setting up will pay off, but I just wanted to try it out after I got it yesterday.

 

I'm really going to love shooting this rifle for sure. Came back with a bag of rabbits with great big holes in them too. Not a twitch out of any of them.

 

BANG - WALLOP - FLOP.

 

It's very loud too. Much more than the stingers were in the .22.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2008 by Evilv

[Dave-G]

What took you so long?

 

Well done mate - looks a nice bit of kit, I've never tried that kind of action.

[tweedledee]

looks a fine rifle, how do these compare to normal bolt action rifles?

[Baldrick]

Do the fragile little 17gr V-Max rounds receive any damage in the tubular mag?

[Oly]

Nice to see somehting a bit different on here, glad your enjoying mate - keep us up to date.

[Evilv]

What took you so long?

 

Well done mate - looks a nice bit of kit, I've never tried that kind of action.

 

I dunnow - I had the CZ two years and it seemed and is a fine tool. Very good out to about 80 yards, where I'm probably starting to be the cause of the failures rather than the gun. For that rifle, maybe I should think about a bipod and really learn the ballistics of the rounds to work out drop. But it does become a bit like artillery after about 70 yards with its great big drop off and the way you have to lob the bullet at the target. Great on a range where you know the distance, but **** out on a rough and windy hillside in the Pennines. None of that with he new puppy though - point - bang - pick up the wabbit.

 

 

looks a fine rifle, how do these compare to normal bolt action rifles?

 

It's early days with only half a box fired, but I did have a 9422 XTR which is the 22 magnum version of this gun back in the late seventies and early eighties. That never let me down once - not one problem in about five years of use. I had a 10/22 as well at the time, and I never fired it once after I got the winchester. The action is very quick, but it is old fashioned with a half cock safety like a cowboy gun. You can see that it is based on the old western winchesters, although the action is different. You don't load it on the side of the action like those and the bigger 94 series winchesters. Its a very nostalgic style of rifle - harking back to the western frontier days. You can't just unclip the magazine either if say you meet somebody on the shoot and you want to unload the gun while you pass the time of day. You have to empty the tube. It's perfectly doable, but not as convenient.

 

The guns are supposed to be very accurate. My old .22 magnum one would shoot groups of about an inch or inch and ahalf at 100 yards if I did my job. I think that is about typical for the cartridge in other rifles too, so I don't think there is any inherent inaccuracy in the action. Form a layman's point of view, it just looks like a different way of working the bolt. It is completely locked up when you shut the lever, so I expect the action won't affect the accuracy. Bob would know better and plenty of others among you maybe.

 

One thing - and I'd appreciate any comments from people with experience of this round, In half a box of ammo, I got one extraction failure. The case seemed pretty tightly stuck. I had to pry it out with the point of my gutting knife - it really didn't want to come out - then it moved and out it came easy as pie.

 

The barrel was also pretty fouled up after 24 shots. The tiny little boresnake weight wouldn't go right down and I had to spend about five minutes fishing up and down to make it go through. A rod would probably be better, which is a disappointment since I appear to have paid £20 for a boot lace with a tiny weight on one end. That must be a high margin business selling laces for £20.

 

Do the fragile little 17gr V-Max rounds receive any damage in the tubular mag?

 

They are quit well protected I think. The spring in the tubular mag isn't that fierce, so I suppose they will survive ok. Time will tell I suppose, but I can see what you are thinking about - will the plastic spire point be knocked off as they slide along the mag tube? The rounds used in the centre fire versions of this rifle (they even made it in 45-70 (which must knock your head off because it is pretty light weight) (* see note) can't have spitzer shaped bullets. They have to be round or square nosed in case the recoil causes the point on one bullet to set off the primer in the next.... What a nasty shock that would give you eh? With rimfire ammo, that's not a problem obviously.

 

 

 

*Note

 

I hired a .45/70 trapdoor springfield carbine repro at the gun range twice. It was a light gun, about six pounds and the first time we bought 25 reloads with 50 grn black powder. It was a beauty to shoot, plenty of bang and smoke and a good kick, but harmless enough. The next week, I brought along a mate and we hired it again with nitro factory loads ---- Jeez - what a beast. I fired about eight and my head was aching. Each shot was like a kick in the face and the violence of the report left me reeling. There was a horrible shock wave every time you pulled the trigger. I handed it over to my mate who was full of bravado and he ended up with a nose bleed. Light gun - big cartridge - nasty time at both ends of the rifle. I wouldn't want one of these little winchesters with a big fat round like that. It's probably great with .38 pistol ammo. 357 magnum might be ok. They come in that too. I think you may be able to fire 38 special and .357 out of the same gun in the same way as you can fire .22l and .22lr. Not sure, but I believe that's right.

 

Article on Winchester .38 carbine

 

Edited August 3, 2008 by Evilv

[wildfowler.250]

Finally got the variation through I see, good looking guns

is it just .17hmr they make those leaver actions in? Thought I saw Winchester or someone makin a leaver action . 410. At one point? looks fun to shoot!

[Evilv]

Finally got the variation through I see, good looking guns

is it just .17hmr they make those leaver actions in? Thought I saw Winchester or someone makin a leaver action . 410. At one point? looks fun to shoot!

 

Yeah.

 

They make these guns in .22lr, .22 WMR and in 17HMR. They also make a lot of larger caliber guns in the same lever style. Other manufacturers also make lever guns. The Henry is quite similar in appearance, but the receiver is not steel like the Winchester. The Winchester also allows you to remove the barrel and scope rail part of the receiver from the rear part containing the trigger, loading and ejection mechanism all attached to the shoulder stock. This has the advantage of allowing you to put a rod up from the rear end. This obviously helps maintain the perfection of the barrel crown. Helps fr cleaning and oiling the works too, I'd say. The winchester comes apart after removal of a single large screw and because the scope stays with the barrel, there are no issues regarding the zero afterwards. Marlin also make levers (39a) and so do Miroku.

 

This gun seems to need constant cleaning. If I don't clean about every 9 shots, I get extraction problems. The old 9422XTR that I had years back never did this. I'm going to try and have a good look at the chamber to see if there is anything sticky in there, and also take a magnifying glass to the bolt face and extractors. I don't think it is the extractor - the cartridges are tight as hell when it happens. I was reduced to wiping a drop of spit onto the neck of the case before I closed the lever just to lubricate it enough to get it out smoothly. After cleaning, all went well, until another 9 or 10 shots had been fired and then it started again. Hopefully this will be resolved. i can't be dropping a snake down the bore every magazine. That's hardly practical is it?

 

On the bright side, the gun is very nice to handle. My off hand shooting has improved no end and I was easily able to shoot 110 yard rabbits even with a rather cheap Nikko Sterling 4x32 scope. I know that 110 yard rabbits with an hmr is no big deal, but I didn't even have it properly zeroed at the time. I now have it set dead on at 110 yards and everything I pointed it at after was hit hard and in the right place, give or take a bit of miscalculated windage.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Evilv

[deadeye ive]

Not my cup of tea evilv in this calibre but I can see the attraction of open sights ...........You ask for comments from those experienced in this calibre well with my rifle from new the first couple of boxes of hornady ammo put through showed excellant promise then the next 8 boxes seemed to be all over the place and by that I mean out of 5 shots 3 would be in the manufacturers 1" circle at 100 yds followed by 2 flyers ...........absolute howlers and this was benchresting .

Without no real explanation my CZ is back to giving the consistant accuracy when it was new at 100 yds albeit with Remmington ammo .

 

I only clean when accracy drops off which really could be several hundred shots ..........I don't know really as I think over cleaning is what caused the problems of inconsistancy mentioned earlier .

 

It can be a fickle calibre but at 50 yds free standing I'd be surprised if the round did'nt end up somewhere near to where your pointing .

 

Rimfire magic for all your cleaning gear buddy ........especially a rod and not a bore snake ....they even do a bore guide as well but as I'm not familiar with the rifle I don't know if it would be of any use .

 

PS

 

Note to ones self

 

Read post properly before replying .............I see you've attached a scope

 

It's been a long weekend and I'm goosed after Bisley

[bob300w]

I hired a .45/70 trapdoor springfield carbine repro at the gun range twice. It was a light gun, about six pounds and the first time we bought 25 reloads with 50 grn black powder. It was a beauty to shoot, plenty of bang and smoke and a good kick, but harmless enough. The next week, I brought along a mate and we hired it again with nitro factory loads ---- Jeez - what a beast. I fired about eight and my head was aching. Each shot was like a kick in the face and the violence of the report left me reeling. There was a horrible shock wave every time you pulled the trigger. I handed it over to my mate who was full of bravado and he ended up with a nose bleed. Light gun - big cartridge - nasty time at both ends of the rifle. I wouldn't want one of these little winchesters with a big fat round like that. It's probably great with .38 pistol ammo. 357 magnum might be ok. They come in that too. I think you may be able to fire 38 special and .357 out of the same gun in the same way as you can fire .22l and .22lr. Not sure, but I believe that's right.

 

In case this is not clear, 38sp is OK in 357, but not vice versa. And the 357 in a rifle is a pussy cat.

[Evilv]

In case this is not clear, 38sp is OK in 357, but not vice versa. And the 357 in a rifle is a pussy cat.

 

That's very important. Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry about my dangerous waffle there.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Evilv

[Evilv]

Not my cup of tea evilv in this calibre but I can see the attraction of open sights ...........You ask for comments from those experienced in this calibre well with my rifle from new the first couple of boxes of hornady ammo put through showed excellant promise then the next 8 boxes seemed to be all over the place and by that I mean out of 5 shots 3 would be in the manufacturers 1" circle at 100 yds followed by 2 flyers ...........absolute howlers and this was benchresting .

Without no real explanation my CZ is back to giving the consistant accuracy when it was new at 100 yds albeit with Remmington ammo .

 

I only clean when accracy drops off which really could be several hundred shots ..........I don't know really as I think over cleaning is what caused the problems of inconsistancy mentioned earlier .

 

It can be a fickle calibre but at 50 yds free standing I'd be surprised if the round did'nt end up somewhere near to where your pointing .

 

Rimfire magic for all your cleaning gear buddy ........especially a rod and not a bore snake ....they even do a bore guide as well but as I'm not familiar with the rifle I don't know if it would be of any use .

 

PS

 

Note to ones self

 

Read post properly before replying .............I see you've attached a scope

 

It's been a long weekend and I'm goosed after Bisley

 

Hope you enjoyed Bisley.

 

Thanks for the advice on the cleaning thing. Points noted especially about Rimfire Magic. I am puzzled about the sticking cases because I've never had that before except the very occasional time in all kinds of guns. I've shot one box of fifty with this one and it has happened three times now. The cases show no damage or distortion. When they come out the neck looks dirty and like I said, boresnake stops it for a while. If it is fouling causing it, odd that they would stick after so few shots. The ammo is Hornady Varmint Express, 17 grain at £20 a hundred.

[Dave-G]

Shock and awe - there's no threading for a sound mod

[Evilv]

Shock and awe - there's no threading for a sound mod

 

No - and it makes a rather satisfying bang. The rabbits don't seem to notice that much. They look surprised and sit tight. I've had a few follow on shots. Yesterday there were three; swung the lever - bang - flop, and again and again.

 

Farmer said, 'You were busy'.

 

'yes,' said I, 'And the rabbits are dead.'

 

He knows that anyway because he can smell them as he walks around.

 

 

 

I'm still puzzled on this extraction / cleaning issue. I've registered on rimfire central, but the application is awaiting a moderator to approve it. I don't see a spate of other complaints about the round sticking though. I'm going to put a magnifier on the rounds that stuck and those that didn't. Problem is the ones that didn't are gone in the grass. I'll have to wait until next time unless any landed up in my bag while I was resting on it and sighting in.

[wildfowler.250]

Shock and awe - there's no threading for a sound mod

 

No - and it makes a rather satisfying bang. The rabbits don't seem to notice that much. They look surprised and sit tight. I've had a few follow on shots. Yesterday there were three; swung the lever - bang - flop, and again and again.

 

Farmer said, 'You were busy'.

 

'yes,' said I, 'And the rabbits are dead.'

 

He knows that anyway because he can smell them as he walks around.

 

 

 

I'm still puzzled on this extraction / cleaning issue. I've registered on rimfire central, but the application is awaiting a moderator to approve it. I don't see a spate of other complaints about the round sticking though. I'm going to put a magnifier on the rounds that stuck and those that didn't. Problem is the ones that didn't are gone in the grass. I'll have to wait until next time unless any landed up in my bag while I was resting on it and sighting in.

 

 

If you don't mind me asking, what email address did you use to register?! I tried to regester on that site before and

it wouldn't let me use my hotmail account?!

[Evilv]

If you don't mind me asking, what email address did you use to register?! I tried to regester on that site before and

it wouldn't let me use my hotmail account?!

 

I doubt that is the problem. It is a proper ISP account.

 

Also, I am registered and can log in. It just says that my application is awaiting the attention of a moderator.

 

It isn't a problem really. I can wait.

 

Cheers.

[deadeye ive]

I'm still puzzled on this extraction / cleaning issue. I've registered on rimfire central, but the application is awaiting a moderator to approve it. I don't see a spate of other complaints about the round sticking though. I'm going to put a magnifier on the rounds that stuck and those that didn't. Problem is the ones that didn't are gone in the grass. I'll have to wait until next time unless any landed up in my bag while I was resting on it and sighting in.

 

You mention earlier about how difficult it's been to feed the boresnake in and i'm sure as you well know it only takes the smallest amount of debris in the breech to make things tight .

Either that or it could be that the barrel was cut with worn tools just coming out of calibration and your chamber is a few microns under size .

 

The dirty necks are an indication of air space in the chamber when the round is loaded and upon firing powder residue or sooting occurs in this area .Maybe there is a slight stretching of the neck because it as the space to do it causing these extraction problems .

 

I once had a strand off a cleaning patch in the breach and no way could I load a round and that was the end of that hunting trip .

 

Rimfire central is a good site

[Evilv]

I'm still puzzled on this extraction / cleaning issue. I've registered on rimfire central, but the application is awaiting a moderator to approve it. I don't see a spate of other complaints about the round sticking though. I'm going to put a magnifier on the rounds that stuck and those that didn't. Problem is the ones that didn't are gone in the grass. I'll have to wait until next time unless any landed up in my bag while I was resting on it and sighting in.

 

You mention earlier about how difficult it's been to feed the boresnake in and i'm sure as you well know it only takes the smallest amount of debris in the breech to make things tight .

Either that or it could be that the barrel was cut with worn tools just coming out of calibration and your chamber is a few microns under size .

 

The dirty necks are an indication of air space in the chamber when the round is loaded and upon firing powder residue or sooting occurs in this area .Maybe there is a slight stretching of the neck because it as the space to do it causing these extraction problems .

 

I once had a strand off a cleaning patch in the breach and no way could I load a round and that was the end of that hunting trip .

 

Rimfire central is a good site

 

Thanks Ive.

 

You are the first person to come up with a detailed explanation of what might be going on. I really hope we aren't talking about a bad chamber. That will be a real ****** if it's the cause.

 

I've just got back from another shooting trip and at the beginning the second and third cartridge fired stuck in the breach. I went to the car, pulled the dip stick and wiped the oil onto a tissue. I then wiped oil all over the next nine cartridges and loaded them. none of them stuck. Near the end of the night, two more stuck, but to be honest, I guess those ones had barely any oil on them. None of them were wet with oil or anything, justa thin film like you might get on an engine cylinder.

 

Is this likely to carbonize and make the thing worse by coking up? I know there is considerable heat, but presumably in the absence of free oxygen. This is guesswork and I really don't know. My next step aprt from thorough cleaning will be two fold. First, I am going to take a small tube of coppa slip with me next time and wipe it on the cases and necks. If that makes them slippy enough to come out like the oiled ones seemed to, I'll keep doing it until I've used up these Hornady rounds and then try another type without lubrication.

 

Other than that, it may need to be returned, but I'd really rather not have to do that.

 

Shot 140 yard rabbit stone dead tonight, and most were at about a hundred and some. This is new experience for me after the .22 and quite pleasing in a psycho kind of a way.

[deadeye ive]

I'd try another brand now as it could have to go back

 

 

What about using hair wax.........or as I heard from our seal and pump expert who happens to be 67 years young with over 50 years mechanical engineering experience .............'KY'Jelly .............Apparantly its the best lube for all applications out there buddy ...........No risk of carbonising the chamber with that stuff

 

I'm currently trying to get it on our stores issue list :unsure: :unsure:

[Evilv]

I\'d try another brand now as it could have to go back

 

 

What about using hair wax.........or as I heard from our seal and pump expert who happens to be 67 years young with over 50 years mechanical engineering experience .............\'KY\'Jelly .............Apparantly its the best lube for all applications out there buddy ...........No risk of carbonising the chamber with that stuff

 

I\'m currently trying to get it on our stores issue list :unsure: :unsure:

 

LOL - brings a new dimension to getting out the old bore snake, doesn\'t it?

 

 

I spoke to Winchester on the phone.

 

The guy said I should carefully clean the chamber with a .22 brush and plenty of foaming bore cleaner. He reckoned that the chamber may be dirty and that the boresnake for .17 wouldn\'t do much to the .22 magnum chamber which it is for most of its length up to the necked down part. I tried looking at the chamber and I can see an uneven deposit in there near the neck, but it isn\'t easy to eyeball it with a torch in the action. Someone on rimfire central said the hornady rounds are hotter loaded than others and to try another brand. Some of the fired cases are a slightly different shape to others with shorter necks.

 

I\'ll go on the clean chamber first, new brand of ammo second, and KY jelly third - LOL.

 

I\'m not sure it would burn up clean actually Ive. I know it\'s water based, but there must be something slippy in it that could dry out and burn. I\'m thinking a smear of grease on the cases if all else fails. Then it\'s sending the beast back, which would be a real shame since I have a lot of work for it to do, which is why I bought it in the first place.

 

 

The two on the left stuck. The other two on the right didn't. Look at the shapes at the neck. I can'ts see how they would come out different if they were subject to the same pressures in the same chamber, unless they were able to back out from the chamber a bit under peak pressure. The stuck ones have dirty necks. I'm going to clean that sucker good and hard....

 

 

 

EDIT - actually, I have powdered graphite which I will polish into the chamber with a mop after cleaning all the crud out. That is a true high temperature lubricant. I got a puffer pack with wee spout from a locksmith a few years back and it is very slippy stuff and binds onto metal really well. It may be the perfect lube for this kind of thing, but really we all know you don't need to lube a rifle chamber so what am I raving on about?

Edited August 6, 2008 by Evilv

[deadeye ive]

Well there you go a ..22 magnum chamber with a .17 hmr bullet inserted .............Think winchester might have overlooked this .

Are the necks splitting at all ?

Have chron'd Feds ,Hornady and remmington and they were all around 2550 fps so I'm not sure why CCI would make one brand hotter if thats the case ,It certainly was.nt that day ............Remmington were very consistant though

 

Just seen your photo

 

It looks like the brass case is being stretched forward behind the neck on the fired ones

[Evilv]

Well there you go a ..22 magnum chamber with a .17 hmr bullet inserted .............Think winchester might have overlooked this .

Are the necks splitting at all ?

Have chron'd Feds ,Hornady and remmington and they were all around 2550 fps so I'm not sure why CCI would make one brand hotter if thats the case ,It certainly was.nt that day ............Remmington were very consistant though

 

Just seen your photo

 

It looks like the brass case is being stretched forward behind the neck on the fired ones

 

When I say .22 mag chamber, I mean the HMR is a necked down .22 mag (which you know of course) but the i17 boresnake is to thin to really clean that fat part very well. If it would give the fat part of the chamber a good scrub, it wouldn't go down the rest of the pipe. Like I say, I can see an uneven and dull ring in there which I think must be either fouling, or burned cosmoline, which is the name of the bore preserving gunk they put in a new rifle. As I recall, I just pulled the snake through the bore once before I got started and may have left some down in the chamber.

 

Yes - the cases have changed like you say, but look at the left most one. It's the same as the unfired case, but fouled. Of course, in desperation after two consecutive stuck cases when I could have had a follow on shot, I also oiled the cases with oil from my cars dipstick on a tissue. That got me nine or ten good cyclings of the action and a sack of rabbits. Some of that uneven looking fouling on the leftmost case could also be the effect of old engine oil out of my diesel. Daft, but desperate situations require unorthodox solutions to get you through. I should have gone with the screen name of 'Bodger', or maybe 'Bodger Bill'.

 

 

No - the necks are mostly just sort of shrugged up like you can see in the photo.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Evilv

[deadeye ive]

Lubing the rounds seem to work but I think its time to get your self one of these and some quality jags and mops also ........I rate Butches bore shine by the way

http://www.rimfiremagic.co.uk/17hmr_rifles.html

 

FWIW I have encountered no such problems in my CZ and I know you like this particular rifle but something aint right with it

[Evilv]

Lubing the rounds seem to work but I think its time to get your self one of these and some quality jags and mops also ........I rate Butches bore shine by the way

http://www.rimfiremagic.co.uk/17hmr_rifles.html

 

FWIW I have encountered no such problems in my CZ and I know you like this particular rifle but something aint right with it

 

Yeah - on the last sentence, I know you are right. I'm just hanging onto the hope that I left the preserving fluid in the chamber and it burned up.....

 

I like my CZ too. I like it more all the time I'm thinking about this problem. It has fired about 1400 rounds without a fault of any kind, but I still like this little rifle.... I just paid £399 for it so I have to like it.

 

 

It'll come right - you'll see......

 

I'll send for some brushes and a rod - or maybe I'll compare prices with the local gunsmith because I need this thing working - like NOW!!!

Edited August 6, 2008 by Evilv

[Evilv]

Sorted the problem I think.

 

Rimfire Central

 

 

Thirty five rounds through faultlessly this afternoon.