The fighting in Georgia

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[dazza]

I brought in Ulster as an illustration of how not to treat minority peoples. Ulster is a done deal now between the UK and Ireland and it ws solved by discussion, not invasions or warfare.

 

There is some sensible commentary on here about this subject:

 

BBC - Have your say

 

The peace over here is great long may it last :blink:

[Dr W]

According to BBC it looks likle it's over for the time being

 

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, the Kremlin says.

 

He told officials he had decided to end the campaign after restoring security for Russian citizens and peacekeepers in South Ossetia.

[vole]

I think the Russians are acting aggressively which is no surprise,they do that kind of thing very well.Unfortunately Iraq,Afghanistan and potentially Iran are examples of how confronting even 2nd rate powers on their own doorstep is an expensive exercise. Combine a large,expendable,if poorly trained army with delusions of regaining national pride and you have a fight on your hands. Especially if the aggressor is Russia. The West (certainly Europe) has not got the stomach for military losses on the scale of what would kick off if it came to a shooting war with Russia.I feel sad for each and every loss of ours in the conflicts we have already. It would be good to get them on a leash but maybe we should have done it before they became too tough a nut to crack. Its worrying what is happening but it could get a whole lot worse.

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[Evilv]

Since 2001, and before that as well, western idealogues allowed their rhetoric about 'freedom' to over-rule their heads about what is practical and sensible. They spout Hollywood bullsh it ideals about 'standing up to', 'freedom', 'evil empires', 'better dead than red', and other such clichés. In America, this cra p goes down a storm. That's because they are utterly naive. Sad to say, our idiot ex-Primeminister led us into a war to promote this kind of neocon nonesense. What happened? We made a bad place VERY much worse. I am reading the same kind of stuff here, standing up to bullies, letting these people be 'free'. Sadly, what this nonsense is free of is REALITY. We neither have the power, nor right to dictate to Russia. Any serious attempt to force the hand of Russia by 'standing up to' them militarily would be a disaster. In my experience, the people who advocate this kind of intervention are rarely the ones who stand behind a rifle, ready to disembark from a troop carrier to go into battle - that's a job for other people.

 

All we can do is seek out other energy resources and cease trading with a belligerent Russia, but I doubt that this would work for reasons earlier stated, they have something that is in high demand. Russia has its sphere of influence like we do. If the Bear were to be installing anti-missile equipment and forming alliances with our partners in Europe - lining up against us, we would take issue with it. It is the same for them. Had not Saakosville sent in troops and killed 2000 people in South Ossettia, none of this would have happened. It amazes me that some people don't see what a catastrophic move that was.

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[Evilv]

You keep going on about Russias partners and their sphere of influence, exactly how many former Soviet countries are rushing towards closer relations to Russia please? Not too many. Naturally they would want good relations with Russia but they're not naiieve enough to rush blindly back into the motherlands loving arms, they've good experience of how that goes. I hope not too many people have the same opinions as yourself Evilv as it'll need to stay fine for ye in the future if ya think Russia will happily now head home and not be seriously thinking of more foreign adventures in the near future.

 

I'm not getting drawn into a discussion about Iraq. Forces went in there for the wrong reasons, not that it was wrong to go in and topple Saddam, that would have been a much better reason.

 

It doesn't matter whether their neighbours like them or not. The REALITY is that Russia is there, has dominated the whole region for hundreds of years (not just seventy) and who is going to stop them besides you John?

 

 

Why crisis this is not an open and shut case:

 

BBC VIDEO ON BACKGROUND TO CONFLICT

Edited August 12, 2008 by Evilv

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[dustyfox]

You keep going on about Russias partners and their sphere of influence, exactly how many former Soviet countries are rushing towards closer relations to Russia please? Not too many. Naturally they would want good relations with Russia but they're not naiieve enough to rush blindly back into the motherlands loving arms, they've good experience of how that goes. I hope not too many people have the same opinions as yourself Evilv as it'll need to stay fine for ye in the future if ya think Russia will happily now head home and not be seriously thinking of more foreign adventures in the near future.

 

I'm not getting drawn into a discussion about Iraq. Forces went in there for the wrong reasons, not that it was wrong to go in and topple Saddam, that would have been a much better reason.

 

It doesn't matter whether their neighbours like them or not. The REALITY is that Russia is there, has dominated the whole region for hundreds of years (not just seventy) and who is going to stop them besides you John?

 

 

Why crisis this is not an open and shut case:

 

BBC VIDEO ON BACKGROUND TO CONFLICT

 

For hundreds of years Europe including Russia has had a balancing act, like when Napoleon and France decided to make a formidable army, Britain allied with Germany (Prussia) and Russia to Balance out the power out, this is what made Germany in Both World Wars so powerful. Britain was actually allied to Germany just before WW1 in case France decided to tke over Europe again. Now its the turn of the Russians except this time we have USA and Europe on one side and Russia and China on the other side. Its all about the balance of power.

[fallowbuck]

I think many posters here are doing the Russian People a great injustice! Over 20 million Russian/Soviet people died defeating the Nazis in WW11 and the entire enormous country was devastated. Do you not think they might be a little concerned about the ever encroaching influence of "Uncle Sam" in their backyard? I'm sure many still remember and lived through the atrocities the Nazis perpetrated there! USA can hardly take the moral ground and preach about infringing borders etc. After all they are one of the main instigators of State sponsored terrorism in places like Cuba, Nicaragua and many others. The CIA has sought to undermine and topple any government that has taken a different Political path or lifestyle to their own , even when elected by a democratic means! This has bred huge mistrust amongst the International communities as to their actual intentions. The only thing that motivates American foriegn policy is the dollar!

Edited August 12, 2008 by fallowbuck

[starlight32]

I think many posters here are doing the Russian People a great injustice! Over 20 million Russian/Soviet people died defeating the Nazis in WW11 and the entire enormous country was devastated. Do you not think they might be a little concerned about the ever encroaching influence of "Uncle Sam" in their backyard? I'm sure many still remember and lived through the atrocities the Nazis perpetrated there! USA can hardly take the moral ground and preach about infringing borders etc. After all they are one of the main instigators of State sponsored terrorism in places like Cuba, Nicaragua and many others. The CIA has sought to undermine and topple any government that has taken a different Political path or lifestyle to their own , even when elected by a democratic means! This has bred huge mistrust amongst the International communities as to their actual intentions. The only thing that motivates American foriegn policy is the dollar!

 

 

I think you fail to mention the equality of the Russian regime under stalin to the German one under Hitler.

 

In fact I will go so far to say that Stalin was far more murderous than Hitler. As for the atrocities commited in Russia, the consequences in Germany and satellite countries to which the Russian army advanced through and occupied suffered equally.. Retribution? No it would have happened to who-ever's path communism passes- Full stop.

 

This has been proven time and time again in history.

 

Russia is only reaping what they have sown after 80 years of oppression towards their own peoples.

[dustyfox]

I think many posters here are doing the Russian People a great injustice! Over 20 million Russian/Soviet people died defeating the Nazis in WW11 and the entire enormous country was devastated. Do you not think they might be a little concerned about the ever encroaching influence of "Uncle Sam" in their backyard? I'm sure many still remember and lived through the atrocities the Nazis perpetrated there! USA can hardly take the moral ground and preach about infringing borders etc. After all they are one of the main instigators of State sponsored terrorism in places like Cuba, Nicaragua and many others. The CIA has sought to undermine and topple any government that has taken a different Political path or lifestyle to their own , even when elected by a democratic means! This has bred huge mistrust amongst the International communities as to their actual intentions. The only thing that motivates American foriegn policy is the dollar!

 

 

I think you fail to mention the equality of the Russian regime under stalin to the German one under Hitler.

 

In fact I will go so far to say that Stalin was far more murderous than Hitler. As for the atrocities commited in Russia, the consequences in Germany and satellite countries to which the Russian army advanced through and occupied suffered equally.. Retribution? No it would have happened to who-ever's path communism passes- Full stop.

 

This has been proven time and time again in history.

 

Russia is only reaping what they have sown after 80 years of oppression towards their own peoples.

 

Thats why Hitler got voted in, as he said he wont stand Communism as the german people were worried about it.

[Evilv]

I think many posters here are doing the Russian People a great injustice! Over 20 million Russian/Soviet people died defeating the Nazis in WW11 and the entire enormous country was devastated. Do you not think they might be a little concerned about the ever encroaching influence of "Uncle Sam" in their backyard? I'm sure many still remember and lived through the atrocities the Nazis perpetrated there! USA can hardly take the moral ground and preach about infringing borders etc. After all they are one of the main instigators of State sponsored terrorism in places like Cuba, Nicaragua and many others. The CIA has sought to undermine and topple any government that has taken a different Political path or lifestyle to their own , even when elected by a democratic means! This has bred huge mistrust amongst the International communities as to their actual intentions. The only thing that motivates American foriegn policy is the dollar!

 

This is true, (also taking into account the accurate remarks about Stalin of Starlight32). And never forget that Americans sponsored the IRA for decades until 2001 when paying for people to set of bombs suddenly became unpopular for some reason one September morning.

 

It was the Russians that defeated the Nazis, not us, though people of my mother's generation like to take the credit themselves since she and my father were both in the forces at the time. Russia has always been a formidable power in Europe, and mostly, we have been rivals. We fought the Russians in the mid nineteenth century in the Crimea and the Afghan wars of the mid and late nineteenth century were really over Russia and drawing a line to stop their spreading influence. Large and powerful countries effect their neighbour and they always have. The idea that in these matters we can get the lion to lie down with the lamb is a joke, unworthy of serious consideration. Show me the large power on the planet that is not dominating its neighbours.... And please John Wayne - an obvious recipient of American bull **** and propaganda, don't tell me that America isn't throwing its weight about everywhere on the planet... Tell that to the Iraqis and the Afghans, or the Iranians, or the South Koreans or anywhere that sells stuff cheaper than they can, or doesn't want their corporate rapists into their markets. America prefers to let its corporations invade and dominate. If countries don't allow that, they get big time force let loose. Interestingly, Iraq's oil is now being extracted (for the benefit of Iraq's people of course) by American oil corporations.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Evilv

[Ice]

"""This is true, (also taking into account the accurate remarks about Stalin of Starlight32). And never forget that Americans sponsored the IRA for decades until 2001 when paying for people to set of bombs suddenly became unpopular for some reason one September morning."""

 

 

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[Evilv]

"""This is true, (also taking into account the accurate remarks about Stalin of Starlight32). And never forget that Americans sponsored the IRA for decades until 2001 when paying for people to set of bombs suddenly became unpopular for some reason one September morning."""

 

 

NORAID

 

North American Aid to the IRA. Protected by the Kennedy's and others in Congress, massively supported in Boston, New York by ex-patriot Irish, (though not in general the Irish themselves) and the main source of funding for a thirty year war against the Irish government and the UK by terrorist scum (notwithstanding the fact that the UK should have handed Ireland back a hundred years ago except that power is all corrupting and governments often don't do the right thing).

 

I'm no longer replying to your posts Evilv as you seem to have a deep need to personalise debates I've left out segments of your posts earlier that have done this, but now since this is all you seem to be "debating" with I no longer see the point in talking to you.

 

 

 

If John is offended by my robust commentary on his opinions that's a shame. The publishing of naive exhortations to war with major powers (or warlike responses and threats of the use of force) is very likely to elicit strong responses. It has been my experience that the most warmongering people on the Internet are rarely inclined to put themselves in harms way, and since I have family in the British forces who are very much in harms way at this very moment, I take a strong view of anyone from a more or less pacifist nation who advocates the ratcheting up of tensions with by far the largest and most dangerous nation in Europe, which would were they to come to pass involve people close to me coming into a lot more trouble. If you advocate the John Wayne style of settling problems John, and post a picture of John Wayne as an avatare, don't be shocked and offended if someone offended by your exhortations to force, refers to you as John Wayne.

 

Still - I have no intention to offend, but am by nature obnoxious and unpleasant. I tell it how it is though ALWAYS.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Evilv

[Ice]

"""This is true, (also taking into account the accurate remarks about Stalin of Starlight32). And never forget that Americans sponsored the IRA for decades until 2001 when paying for people to set of bombs suddenly became unpopular for some reason one September morning."""

 

 

NORAID

 

North American Aid to the IRA. Protected by the Kennedy's and others in Congress, massively supported in Boston, New York by ex-patriot Irish, (though not in general the Irish themselves) and the main source of funding for a thirty year war against the Irish government and the UK by terrorist scum (notwithstanding the fact that the UK should have handed Ireland back a hundred years ago except that power is all corrupting and governments often don't do the right thing).

 

I'm no longer replying to your posts Evilv as you seem to have a deep need to personalise debates I've left out segments of your posts earlier that have done this, but now since this is all you seem to be "debating" with I no longer see the point in talking to you.

 

I know its not the topic of discussion, but Jesus in a sack! the UK's closest alie helping to fund a war on terrorism against britain is a bit shocking, especially with their "We do not negociate with terrorists" - should be "We do not negociate with terrorists, we just supply them"

[Chard]

"""This is true, (also taking into account the accurate remarks about Stalin of Starlight32). And never forget that Americans sponsored the IRA for decades until 2001 when paying for people to set of bombs suddenly became unpopular for some reason one September morning."""

 

 

NORAID

 

North American Aid to the IRA. Protected by the Kennedy's and others in Congress, massively supported in Boston, New York by ex-patriot Irish, (though not in general the Irish themselves) and the main source of funding for a thirty year war against the Irish government and the UK by terrorist scum (notwithstanding the fact that the UK should have handed Ireland back a hundred years ago except that power is all corrupting and governments often don't do the right thing).

 

I'm no longer replying to your posts Evilv as you seem to have a deep need to personalise debates I've left out segments of your posts earlier that have done this, but now since this is all you seem to be "debating" with I no longer see the point in talking to you.

 

I know its not the topic of discussion, but Jesus in a sack! the UK's closest alie helping to fund a war on terrorism against britain is a bit shocking, especially with their "We do not negociate with terrorists" - should be "We do not negociate with terrorists, we just supply them"

 

 

It's true, whether you like it or not.

 

Noraid propped up the IRA financially for decades and it only became unpopular when the USA started getting on the receiving end of terrorist bombs. Personally I thought it was the earlier attempt on the Towers by putting a bomb in the underground car park that started the Noraid donations drying up, but I could be wrong. Not a thing that they like to discuss, but true none the less.

 

Obviously though (as far as I know) it wasn't official US Government policy, it was "charitable" donations from the American people.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Chard

[kdubya]

well,it looks like GW is calling putins bluff, and it fits in well with the two airbourne fleets making their way to the gulf (as previously indicated) WW3 conditions getting laid out? putin allowing US troops on georgian soil NO WAY JOSE

cheers KW

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7559252.stm

[Spaniel]

Can you imagine what will happen if Russia or the USA accidently shoot down one of the others planes.........

Bit of a dangerous game being played out there i think at present..

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[dustyfox]

What would happen when the US builds its Anti missile defence system in Poland and Czech. Could this be the start of another Cold war?

[dazza]

What would happen when the US builds its Anti missile defence system in Poland and Czech. Could this be the start of another Cold war?

 

we'll all be ******

[Evilv]

The US is sending humanitarian aid and urging the observance ofc ease fires.

 

That is fine with me. It is a dangerous situation and in any case, whatever implications it has for us outsiders and NATO members, it is tragic when any people are displaced or killed in military actions which is why I am so dead set against their unwise use or the threat thereof.

 

Make no mistake though, Georgia's hot headed use of force killed about 2000 South Ossettian mostly Russian national civilians, which is why Russia was bound to react violently. Saakosville's troops shelled civilian people in a province that has had independence since 1992. What was he thinking of?

 

I heard a BBC report this afternoon in which Georgians were interviewed and were denouncing Saakosville for his stupid use of force against South Ossetia caliming that they had lost all they had because of the reaction to it.

 

Governments who use violence against others, even if they are wishing to separate from their control have it coming when they get a bloody nose.

 

Don't forget that South Ossettia separated from Georgia inn 1992 and has been running as an autonomous territory since then. Most of its citizens are ethnic Russians.

 

Even GWB has more sense than to send troops to Georgia to do more than deliver humanitarian supplies. It would be much more provocative than the Russians sending fighting men to Cuba. Georgia actually borders Russian territory.