Mungler Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 This is comedy gold. Nearly up there with Suffolk-Shooter-Cavie-Gate. Once that genie flys out of the bottle there's no putting it back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 It would be nice to hear from some of the main SACS supporters on ths issue, what will they be doing now? What can they do to save this situation, call an SGM to get it sorted, or as many on the SACS forum are saying leave? Democracy must win out surely! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 It would be nice to hear from some of the main SACS supporters on ths issue, what will they be doing now? What can they do to save this situation, call an SGM to get it sorted, or as many on the SACS forum are saying leave? Democracy must win out surely! David David, you and the BASC hierarchy are always proclaiming that any problems the membership have with their organisation, they should take to the AGM and deal with it in a democratic manner, rather than just leave the organisation. I am sure you would counsel the SACS members to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirusman Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 It would be nice to hear from some of the main SACS supporters on ths issue, what will they be doing now? What can they do to save this situation, call an SGM to get it sorted, or as many on the SACS forum are saying leave? Democracy must win out surely! David [/quot For sure i will not be going back to BASC and their inflated rates,what you guys should remember is that the people who choose not to join any organisation profit from any work done to protect shooting by the said organisations and without cost to themselves.You all claim to be concerned about the future of the sport yet gloat at any organisation in turmoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 This is comedy gold. Nearly up there with Suffolk-Shooter-Cavie-Gate. Once that genie flys out of the bottle there's no putting it back in. Glad I could be of assistance Andy, What I find really funny is the guys resigns publicly from a job he volunteered to do (Can you do that?) and publicly slate the CEO and then says that people should still join. That is about as crazy as people going to buy a kitchen from MFI. Put a post on here about a whip round for BASC and all the basc haters in the world crawl from the woodwork. Tell them that their own organisation is falling apart around their ears and not one of them can answer. What the matter guys? have you run out of answers or did you not have any to start with. Ian Clark was quick to jump in on the BASC kicking but where is he now? Sirusman, I profit from not doing the lottery each week but cannot complain when I don't win. Do you honestly believe that SACS do not profit from their members or is it just BASC staff that have new tweeds every year and quail eggs for lunch all out of my subscription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirusman Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 All a matter of to what degree i do not suppose for one moment you have studied yearly accounts? Why is it the BASC members find it neccersary to get personal and insulting on this subject maybe they feel a need to justify their decision. Best i not post on this matter any more as it really is getting boring like at school when kids used to argue "my dad could fight your dad"my football team is better that yours GLOAT ON GUYS Bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 At what point did I get personal? I personally don't care how much profit an organiation makes, it doesn't make any difference to me. It is my choice as to what one I join and I choose to join BASC. Why, because they are the biggest and best and I believe they will look after my needs as a shooting man. I also don't care if they all drive 4 x 4's, say that everything is spiffing and have the crusts cut off their cucumber sandwiches. They have been around for 100 years as well which says more than a few words on here can. Shame you can't reason an arguement when the boot is on the other foot though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Cranfield, Yes that is EXACTLY what I said in my post- call and SGM and get it sorted democratically! But if you look on the SACS forum there are many comments from SACS members including Sirusman I believe, that are being unanswered by the management at SACS, this is not helping their cause is it? The title of the thread is SACS what is happening – and apart from Webber kindly posting links to the SACS forum there seems to be little comment on this forum, to answer that question. People who join an association pay their membership fee, receive the benefits of membership, but should also have a say in the running of that association by the democratic process. But when questions are asked they should be answered, if not I can guarantee this will cause problems- which can blow up just like we see here with SACS. What could probably have been resolved quickly and quietly by the two protagonists sitting down and negotiating has now probably gone beyond this. But what seems to be a lack of basic communication has now evolved to a point where I honestly think there could be some major changes at SACS via SGM or AGM – looking back was that really necessary? I know from experience that this sort of disruption is potentially very damaging – what has it been allowed to happen is a question that SACS members perhaps should be asking. I’ve said before, running an organization when things are going well is pretty easy- its when the wheels fall off the members see the true resolve, capability and character of the management. BASC is not immune as many of you will recall- what in my mind was a basic failure for BASC to properly communicate to the membership lead to a small group of BASC members calling for the resignation of John Swift the BASC CEO, and that call became a resolution for the AGM, only a few years ago. It made BASC make some very positive changes to the management structure and I think we are infinitely stronger for it. But there is always room for improvement when it comes to communication in my opinion. Sirusman – you make your position crystal clear and I fully respect your wish not to join BASC, not least of all because you do not like the cost!. I do not think I have gloated, if I have given that impression I am sorry. I would point out it was a SACS member who took this to the public domain and it was a SACS member that started this thread on PW, and unless you have a doppelganger on the SACS site I think it is you that has said on the SACS forum that you do not want to be part of an organization that sweeps issues under the carpet, that the continuing lack of comment from the management is leading to the ridicule of SACS and that Ian should reconsider his position at SACS. Of course if it is another Sirusman who is also a SACS member on the SACS forum then I unreservedly apologize to you the PW Sirusman. I think it is a bit of a kick in the teeth to all BASC members for example to say you are happy to benefit from what BASC does (funded by the membership fee they all loyally pay year after year) but are not willing to support it, indeed everything but! But this indicated to me that you do recognize that BASC does have a positive effect and benefits shooters and shooting, so thank you for that vote of confidence in BASC and what our work programs achieve. To reciprocate, please could you post, perhaps on a new thread so as not to distract from this one how BASC members benefit from SACS activities? As you know there are a lot of BASC members who are reading this forum, and as you have been so kind about BASC it is only fair that you have a chance to promote how BASC members benefit from the work of SACS. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirusman Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Cranfield, Yes that is EXACTLY what I said in my post- call and SGM and get it sorted democratically! But if you look on the SACS forum there are many comments from SACS members including Sirusman I believe, that are being unanswered by the management at SACS, this is not helping their cause is it? The title of the thread is SACS what is happening – and apart from Webber kindly posting links to the SACS forum there seems to be little comment on this forum, to answer that question. People who join an association pay their membership fee, receive the benefits of membership, but should also have a say in the running of that association by the democratic process. But when questions are asked they should be answered, if not I can guarantee this will cause problems- which can blow up just like we see here with SACS. What could probably have been resolved quickly and quietly by the two protagonists sitting down and negotiating has now probably gone beyond this. But what seems to be a lack of basic communication has now evolved to a point where I honestly think there could be some major changes at SACS via SGM or AGM – looking back was that really necessary? I know from experience that this sort of disruption is potentially very damaging – what has it been allowed to happen is a question that SACS members perhaps should be asking. I’ve said before, running an organization when things are going well is pretty easy- its when the wheels fall off the members see the true resolve, capability and character of the management. BASC is not immune as many of you will recall- what in my mind was a basic failure for BASC to properly communicate to the membership lead to a small group of BASC members calling for the resignation of John Swift the BASC CEO, and that call became a resolution for the AGM, only a few years ago. It made BASC make some very positive changes to the management structure and I think we are infinitely stronger for it. But there is always room for improvement when it comes to communication in my opinion. Sirusman – you make your position crystal clear and I fully respect your wish not to join BASC, not least of all because you do not like the cost!. I do not think I have gloated, if I have given that impression I am sorry. I would point out it was a SACS member who took this to the public domain and it was a SACS member that started this thread on PW, and unless you have a doppelganger on the SACS site I think it is you that has said on the SACS forum that you do not want to be part of an organization that sweeps issues under the carpet, that the continuing lack of comment from the management is leading to the ridicule of SACS and that Ian should reconsider his position at SACS. Of course if it is another Sirusman who is also a SACS member on the SACS forum then I unreservedly apologize to you the PW Sirusman. I think it is a bit of a kick in the teeth to all BASC members for example to say you are happy to benefit from what BASC does (funded by the membership fee they all loyally pay year after year) but are not willing to support it, indeed everything but! But this indicated to me that you do recognize that BASC does have a positive effect and benefits shooters and shooting, so thank you for that vote of confidence in BASC and what our work programs achieve. To reciprocate, please could you post, perhaps on a new thread so as not to distract from this one how BASC members benefit from SACS activities? As you know there are a lot of BASC members who are reading this forum, and as you have been so kind about BASC it is only fair that you have a chance to promote how BASC members benefit from the work of SACS. David David please re read my last post i was making the point that Basc and other orgs fight for the future of the sport the people who choose not to join any org get that benefit at no cost,read some of the posts from the more vocal members of Basc who in the efforts to justify their choice the resort to insults and personal comments just go back and check a few posts hope they are representative of your organisation. Yes i have made my views clear on the SACS forum with no satisfactory reply,i have also removed from my avatar and reference to Sacs until i feel satisfied by replies from Sacs i did send and email to Sacs 4 days ago about the allegations made and for either a clearr denial or addmission on any non suc-judice matters.......i have had no reply to that email witch in itself tells a story that someone is hoping this will just die down and go away,i for one will not let that happen. The point i made in my previous post was that irrespective what the outcome the one Organisation i will not join or rejoin is Basc until the organisation does some serious pruning so as to bring the subscription to a more realistic level as stated before it is my opinion that the Organisation is very bloated bloated. I HAVE NEVER AT ANY TIME SAID BASC DOES NOT DO A GOOD JOB. I would prefer not to post on this matter again as it realy is a waste of bandwidth if it can not be discussed with out insults Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) Well that reads like a thumbs up for BASC save that they cost too much. But as David has said, for what they offer across the board (i.e. not just cheap insurance) one can see where the subs might actually go (leaving aside range rovers, quails eggs and Pimms o'clock every hour) there is a dedicated firearms department, political lobbying etc etc I didn't think anyone got personal on here. The only personal attack I have seen in a while that I thought was outrageous was Foxgun Tom's post about Eric Begbie on THL : dated 28.10.08 and cleverly entitled "Eric Begbie Wildfowler and ****!!" But that's something else. Edited December 5, 2008 by Mungler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Well that reads like a thumbs up for BASC save that they cost too much. But as David has said, for what they offer across the board (i.e. not just cheap insurance) one can see where the subs might actually go (leaving aside range rovers, quails eggs and Pimms o'clock every hour) there is a dedicated firearms department, political lobbying etc etc I didn't think anyone got personal on here. The only personal attack I have seen in a while that I thought was outrageous was Foxgun Tom's post about Eric Begbie on THL. But that's something else. if someone gave you a little over 8 million a year I bet you could sort out a bit of lobbying and firearms advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 if someone gave you a little over 8 million a year I bet you could sort out a bit of lobbying and firearms advice It would all go up the wall on flash motors and Pimms matey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 At what point did I get personal? I personally don't care how much profit an organisation makes, it doesn't make any difference to me. It is my choice as to what one I join and I choose to join BASC. Why, because they are the biggest and best and I believe they will look after my needs as a shooting man. I also don't care if they all drive 4 x 4's, say that everything is spiffing and have the crusts cut off their cucumber sandwiches. They have been around for 100 years as well which says more than a few words on here can. Shame you can't reason an argument when the boot is on the other foot though. Crikey, I go out for a couple of hours, and miss the debate. For once, I am almost stuck for words, but only almost. I can only wholeheartedly agree with the last posts made by MC and DavidBASC, I could not have said it any better myself, and could add little of any value. Let us not however forget that it was a strong SACS supporter whom found it necessary to ask the question in the first place! It was a strong SACS supporter, and BASC berater whom made the whole issue public, and then saw fit to sling insults at PW members whom exercised their right to comment freely. At long last it does seem that at least some SACS members have now seen some of the light, towards which myself and others were politely pointing, but being harangued at even the slightest mention of SACS. Sadly, the pill may be a bitter one to swallow, but swallow it you must at some point. webber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Mick, Thank for that. Please do not think I am trying to insult you, I am certainly not. If you think I have then I am very very sorry. I may have misunderstood your post, if you are saying that people who do not join an association are ‘freeloading’ on the back of the likes of you and I who do support our chosen association then I agree with you 100%. OK, lets look at the point you make about BASC needing to prune back so it can reduce its membership fee to that of, say, SACS. Which bit should we prune back on? Should we shut some departments down completely? Which ones? here is a list to start with: Firearms Wildfowling Deer and Stalking Game & Game keeping Gundogs Research Shooting Standards Media Press Office Politics Membership Services – including insurance Accounts Scottish centre Welsh Centre NI Centre English regional centers All of the above staffed by some of the top people in their field in the UK, funded by the loyal BASC membership paying at the very most £62 per year, members in clubs, syndicates, U 18’s and over 65’s and gamekeepers, and husbands & wives in joint memberships paying much less.. As you say, BASC is not doing a bad job – maybe this is because we have the expertise and resources that –to be honest, others do not have. You seem to suggest we need to cut the operating cost by about 50% so where do we start but still maintain the operation efficiency of BASC and ensure the BASC can still meet all of its objectives? There is strength in depth in my opinion, but maybe not yours, which is fine. Maybe this really should be another thread so as not to distract from what is a serious issue for SACS I hope SACS get back to you soon. All the best David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 As far as I can see, what started off as the "SACS forum" or at least the SACS affiliated forum was run by FoxgunTom. He has resigned, changed the forum name and effectively disassociated the forum from SACS. Yet, he still expects the SACS director to post on said forum - does he even still have an account? Why would he bother to post on a forum that no longer represents his organisation? Slightly confuzzled?!!? But glad I didn't change to SACS when BASC renewal time came along - it looked too much like a one-man-band to me. Now I've read the story of the director more or less doing as he pleases and ignoring his most experienced right-hand man I think I drew the correct conculsion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirusman Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 David the insults have never come from you ,let me make that clear,it comes from the classic key board warrior that the internet seems to breed Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 The purpose of this thread was to find out that is going on at SACS. Clearly they are not in a position to let us know just yet, so the thread has become derailed I will close it now, we can start another if any news from the SACS camp is forthcoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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