Tommo Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 'Very interesting that although always classed as a voracious and vicious killer of all available livestock, there appears to be little evidence of this being true in this study. Could it be that foxes reputation has been tailored to justify the human desire to kill them perhaps? ' Is 955 for real? Anyone with the basic understanding of our flora and fawna will appriciate the nessecity for us to control the balance of natural preditors (and all large wild animals in the UK) if we are to sustain the natural beauty in integrety of a low desease populous of our country side. Perhaps he thinks we should re-introduce wolves and build fences around the town to keep them out? - or keep city folk in!?! Someone should show him the case study of the LACS site in Northumberland where deer stock has been left to interbreed in areas and what the disasterous outcome is. People like this tire me with their ignorance. Perhaps they should try to read on subjects before expressing a somewhat valid but flawed arguement. Two weeks ago i saw a fox climbing a near verticle willow trunk looking for duck eggs! T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Tommo, 955i is Bill Oddie attempting to infiltrate our ranks and convert us to fox cuddling. It was his bat survey comment that blew his cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 'Very interesting that although always classed as a voracious and vicious killer of all available livestock, there appears to be little evidence of this being true in this study. Could it be that foxes reputation has been tailored to justify the human desire to kill them perhaps? ' Is 955 for real? Anyone with the basic understanding of our flora and fawna will appriciate the nessecity for us to control the balance of natural preditors (and all large wild animals in the UK) if we are to sustain the natural beauty in integrety of a low desease populous of our country side. Perhaps he thinks we should re-introduce wolves and build fences around the town to keep them out? - or keep city folk in!?! Someone should show him the case study of the LACS site in Northumberland where deer stock has been left to interbreed in areas and what the disasterous outcome is. People like this tire me with their ignorance. Perhaps they should try to read on subjects before expressing a somewhat valid but flawed arguement. Two weeks ago i saw a fox climbing a near verticle willow trunk looking for duck eggs! T Yes I am for real and my job is all about keeping the balance between wildlife and the wants of people. Nature has a natural balance and we are certainly not responsible for it, and the majority of our 'countryside' is nothing more than a near barren green desert due to take up of land for crops and overgrazing. The control of predators argument is an old and tired one. As I have said, I am well aware of the need for fox control in some areas and have no problem with that, but how is killing every one you can possibly 'control' of a population? If you just want to kill stuff at least admit it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trussman Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 I have seen a fox kill a cat myself (although hearing it happen was more unpleasant). Most cats are no match for a hungry fox. However we have three scrawny ASBO-wielding farm cats that have given opportunist foxes an absolute hiding. Used to have a cat just like that. Saw off Lurchers and foxes. Was missing half an ear and died after a particularly nasty fight with another cat. I miss that tough old *******. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 995, If it was possible for us to kill every fox, they would have been extinct with the wolves/bears/wooly mamoths that used to reside in our small island. Seeings the fox is far more intelligent than that - they are still here now - and with the hunting ban, have exploded in numbers over the past few years. I think any fox shooter worth his salt will tell you that a fit/healthy and 'wild' fox will be the hardest fox to dispatch. Hunts were rediculed for their part of the control, but speak to any whip/terrierman (ex) then they'll tell you the foxes killed most of the time in the course of hunting with hounds were unfit/unhealthy foxes. Healthy foxes could give a pack of hounds the run around for months. Again l illiterate your need to read on such topic, again the LACS site in Northumberland, perhaps also BASC's survey provided to the government when the hunting ban was re-debated. Also lastly ~ google: Fox attacks in the UK. I personally control foxes on very large diary farm, have you seen a fox dragging a 2 minute old calf to a hedge to eat it? have you seen a pair of foxes work together to get a mother away from a calf in an attempt to drag away a calf to eat? I've seen foxes scale a concrete breeze block wall in an attempt to get to newborns. The reason for their dispatch is not for the joy of the job, but out of necessity as a hefa when fully grown has a top end market value of more than £1400 - to some farmers the difference between sinking or swimming when they are able to take 4 calves a night. Going back to hunting, a old timer who was the master of the Whaddon told me when l did work experience in his Solicitors practice that if you want to preserve something natural - make it a sport. If they had not had this ethos 1-2 hundred years ago they would have died out with everything else. I'm not saying this acceptable - but it goes to show you need to read on this subject - and your lack of understanding (which to be honest we see a lot of on sites like this) T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Tommo, 955i is Bill Oddie attempting to infiltrate our ranks and convert us to fox cuddling. It was his bat survey comment that blew his cover. Bill Oddie I definately am not!! I am however an ecologist (as I have mentioned on here before) who has no problem with hunting for food or to protect stock when necessary (which is the key word here). What I do have misgivings about is killing for the sake of it. As said earlier in the thread, it's my opinion and I'm not expecting everyone to agree. That's why it's called a debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Yes I am for real and my job is all about keeping the balance between wildlife and the wants of people. Nature has a natural balance and we are certainly not responsible for it, and the majority of our 'countryside' is nothing more than a near barren green desert due to take up of land for crops and overgrazing. The control of predators argument is an old and tired one. As I have said, I am well aware of the need for fox control in some areas and have no problem with that, but how is killing every one you can possibly 'control' of a population? If you just want to kill stuff at least admit it! I'll put my hands up to fox and by any method. Tommo, I knew reynard was crafty but that lot is wa beyond what I thought they were capable of LB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 mate, Thats nothing compared to what some farmers have told me: They've seen - foxes opening calf pen gates with their mouths, climbing over ewe's like the Australian cattle dogs to get to lambs, one farmer told me he'd shot a fox on the roof of his barn (lambing shed - so low height). but numberous occasions when they walked into what was thought to be fox proof pens in sheds and found foxes already in and lying in with ewes waiting for newborn lambs to drop.... Some people have no idea! generally its young (healthy) or older unhealthy foxes which are shot around sheds - not to mention ones when have mainge (spelt wrong l know), Personally l quite like to see healthy foxes - and will generally leave them alone through the summer months - T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJUK Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Interesting posts here. I can see 955i's point but also agree with the pest control side of things. I guess it all comes down to balance. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 From an ecological point of view, what benefit does the fox serve? It's a scavenger (corvids do a better job at disposing of carrion), a killer of livestock (totally unwanted) and a killer of small rodents (birds of prey can cover that too). Nature would easily redress the balance were the fox to suddenly die out in a nation-wide hail of V-Max and BB shot. Tommo, we shoot foxes all year round. The cubs only grow up to become trouble. I am killing them to protect stock and reared birds. And my precious wheat, very vulnerable to fox predation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 To be honest mate if an oppertunity occurs in the summer, its taken like you say even cubs are troublesome. But l think that even if l was to go and shoot them all (or what l thought was all of them) more would come - nature of the beast! I suppose its different if you are raising wheat and growing birds!! lol!! Dairy farms as you know are usually into their sillage, haylage etc. growing months and as such make it difficult for us to shoot them - with the wheat going in Oct time - by spring its a foot tall in most places - and you just loose them when lamping. I like to get out on the stubble in Sept with the lamp and then really get on them Nov time to thin them out for calving/lambing ~ T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 I won't waste time with the philosophical arguments. What's wrong with taking pleasure in hunting? We're not feeding Christians to the lions, or bear-baiting or any of the other sports enjoyed by our ancestors - foxes are vermin and it's fun to get after them, case closed. The fox population is a problem in urban areas as well as the countryside. I say bring back hunting with hounds as well as shooting them. If we wish to discuss blights on the countryside, many will argue that wind farms are worse than farming for ruining the views, but perhaps that's a little off the point for this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGalway Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 (edited) . Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 This is some of the things i have seen a fox do Circle a ewe while it was giving birth,waiting for the lamb to come out Sit right next to a cow giving birth,probably waiting for the afterbirth but nonetheless causing the cow great stress with its mere presence Farmer lost 3 lambs in 3 nights,caught the culprit very red handed on first visit to farm with another lamb that it was actually eating as the bullet went through him(one Very happy farmer) Seen one climb 8 feet up a hawthorn bush to get OUT of a pheasant pen.HE DIDNT MAKE IT Have seen lots of destruction caused by them chickens,pheasants,partridges etc etc but the examples above are what i have actually seen them doing You could never shoot them out as they will just fill whatever vacuum you create and as someone has already said a little cute cub doesnt stay a little cute cub so take it if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Got a call from a farmer a while back,both lambs gone from 1 ewe.Strange as they normally can protect 1. Got set up in the field,my mate puts the batteries into his NV,looks out of the windscreen and see,s a big dog fox circling a ewe,trying to get the lambs and her apart.Luckily our presence distracted him and he was duly despatched. 45mins later and the vixen arrives to do the same thing,she was belly crawling towards a lamb when we interupted her,she was sent the same way as hubby....nothing more was lost from this field. If we hadn,t stopped them,the field would have been emptied of lambs i,m sure as they were taking 2 a night. Although i have alot of respect and admiration for the Fox,on our shoot,they are shot on sight. called this fella out of some cow byers last night ..wonder what he was up to.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGalway Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 (edited) . Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapwing Posted December 20, 2008 Report Share Posted December 20, 2008 We, in common with a lot of other farms, have gone to a lot of trouble to encourage wild bird populations to increase. Bird seed plots, grass margins round arable fields, fallow nesting plots, etc. All very fine but futile without some form of predator control. Under our Environmental Stewardship scheme we are specifically trying to help ground nesting birds (grey partridge, stone curlew, lapwing, skylark etc). We manage this under the direction of the RSPB who act with Defra on the scheme. Part of their agreement is that we will undertake fox and corvid control... Now the RSPB chaps on the ground are really helpful and knowledgeable, but for some reason their head office wont let us have any nice laminated RSPB signs to put on our Larsen traps to discourage the well meaning bobble hatted cat hugging vandals who consider it their divine right to trespass at will and release the call birds. Hunting (when legal) was also frowned on as a means of fox control, but apparently OK with a rifle...maybe one cannot be seen to be enjoying killing them? Since the ban we have taken to shooting foxes when possible. The hounds seldom killed any here but seem to have kept the population down overall as now we have far more. Badgers, or ("large ground mammal predation") as our RSPB friends prefer to refer to them, are another can of worms entirely. We have far more than a decade ago, and they are causing a lot of damage to things they eat and things they dig up. That said I would not touch them even if it was legal as I think we have so many on the farm that they keep the others out and so far TB is all round us but not in our cattle (yet..) If there is ever a national cull it needs to be very carefully done to avoid creating a vaccum and having sick animals move in to fill voids. As has been said before, nature is a balancing act. Rant over. Back to feeding fluffy foxes 130 gr .270 pills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 20, 2008 Report Share Posted December 20, 2008 Lapwing, you and I are very much in the same boat with stewardship schemes and measures taken to encourage wild bird populations. We've also been lucky with the lack of TB on the cattle units, despite the thriving badger populations. Personally I hate those little black and white tossers (they've dug up all the graves in a local churchyard, me and the vicar having to re-bury several partial skeletons). As long as they are TB-free, I'll lose no sleep. We don't allow the hunts over our farms, due to the total lack of respect they have for the locals, the farming operations and the shooting. When we did allow them they killed only a few animals each year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapwing Posted December 20, 2008 Report Share Posted December 20, 2008 Baldrick we have to get two badger licences a year; one to fill in new holes and another for routine "agricultural operations" on fields in case I drop a tractor wheel in a hole and get some nutter complaining that I have "interfered with a sett". A load of wasted time for me and the Natural England chap issuing them, but I have had cause to be grateful as someone reported me last year and all was ok as I had licence. Never worried about badgers when we only had a couple of setts, but now it is beyond a joke. At dusk you see the little **** quartering the grass margins in the nesting season, and the damage they do ripping up turf on downland looking for grubs is phenomenal (makes a splendid entry seedbed for thistles too). We are on chalk here so when they start digging on archaeological sites (tumuli etc) they go down to the chalk and rip out all the contents that were buried there. Needs the wildlife charities to get off the fence and admit that there is a growing problem, but they seem more concerned with appeasing old ladies with pussy cats and legacies than really doing anything to educate the general public. In my experience the problems with local hunts are usually one or two individuals giving the rest a bad name; we got on ok with them on the whole, but quite a lot of hassle making sure all ok with gates etc afterwards. We are certainly seeing more foxes than we used to. Our current hassle is the hare coursing fraternity; they have taken to driving everywhere now, and cutting any fence they meet irrespective of livestock in the field etc. Really brazen about it and quite a concern with the ewes as the dogs tend to get abandoned for a few hours if the coppers turn up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 20, 2008 Report Share Posted December 20, 2008 This was our first year of a shoot on sight policy on hares, Lapwing. Not something I am proud of, but we are a courser-free zone. It always amazes me that the badger lovers will flagrantly ignore legislation and the absence of PROWs to wander over our land, inspecting badger setts. Trespass means nothing to those vermin. We've towed their vehicles off private tracks several times this year alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Stinger Posted December 21, 2008 Report Share Posted December 21, 2008 Any of you guys eat fox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 21, 2008 Report Share Posted December 21, 2008 Has the recession hit you so badly that you're considering eating it?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Stinger Posted December 21, 2008 Report Share Posted December 21, 2008 Tastes like chicken .LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevethevanman Posted December 21, 2008 Report Share Posted December 21, 2008 WOW! , I never knew foxes ate domestic cats? really make you think? I never knew they eat vegetation eather, really good post John Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Elvis Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Why did they only eat the calf's nuts? Seriously, interesting reading John, is a calf nut cattle feed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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