clayman Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 The CPSA allows Registered Grounds the option of allowing non-CPSA shooters to shoot a practice card within a Registered shoot if the Ground applies the "Day Ticket" scheme. With this, the non-CPSA shooter shoots and is scored in the normal way, but is not eligible for the prize fund and scores are not returned for Classification. The ground may collect up to £5-00 levy under CPSA regulations, and has to pay CPSA £2-50 for a Day Ticket issued. The ground can charge £5-00 and make a little, charge at CPSA cost of £2-50, or pay CPSA anyway and absorb the £2-50. The principle is that there is time and expense for both Ground Owners and the CPSA in running the Registered system, so if a non-CPSA member wishes to shoot withing a registered competition, they can "Pay as they go" at up to £5-00 a shoot rather than join the CPSA for £57-00 While a few grounds implement this system, the recent posts and threads indicate that it is not much liked by shoot organisers and shooters alike. Many grounds not operating the system, or allowing practice cards but outside the CPSA day card system Do you think the fee on the day card system should be scrapped? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Cant vote, I still dont know how it works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Why should you have to pay extra? If people want to join the CPSA and have their scores count towards a class then they can apy the membership fee. If people want to shoot clays why should they pay extra and get nothing for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Why should you have to pay extra? If people want to join the CPSA and have their scores count towards a class then they can apy the membership fee. If people want to shoot clays why should they pay extra and get nothing for it. Well strangely I voted yes for the levy. I don't mind being charged a couple of quid towards what must be the higher costs of putting on a CPSA registered shoot, compared with a normal practice day. There's referees to pay for, for a start. When I shoot birds-only at a registered shoot at Catton Hall, I'm happy to have the refs/scorers launch the clays and mark my card, so I don't mind paying a contribution towards it. I don't expect to gain anything from the shoot, other than the experience of shooting "proper" targets. For that reason, I don't expect to have to pay the full competition entry fee, but a couple of quid is only to be expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Every one should not shoot any cpsa comp they are only there to feather there own nest and do nothing for the club shooter when they break there own rules they just offer you £20 to keep quite Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulos Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Every one should not shoot any cpsa comp they are only there to feather there own nest and do nothing for the club shooter when they break there own rules they just offer you £20 to keep quite Deershooter Elaborate at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 abort abort abort get rid of birds only aswell, payouts would be higher and more attractive. clay shooting is the only sport i know that pays out more to the lower ranks than the top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 abort abort abort get rid of birds only aswell, payouts would be higher and more attractive. clay shooting is the only sport i know that pays out more to the lower ranks than the top What does it pay out to the lower ranks then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I was against the levy from day 1 - the cost to the ground owner is the same regardless of the number of non CPSA members who shoot on a registered day. If I were a ground owner i would want as few barriers as possible put in front of someone wanting to shoot at my ground. Note the minimum charge has to go to the CPSA - not the ground , so by the sounds of it many grounds who are only charging the minimum are not generating the additional income that some of you think they are. If it is prize fees you are after then the cost to enter the prize paying competition will need to be higher, so maybe an extra levy should be put on the competition shooters, after all it is their scores that are being checked by a ref - the birds only guy does not need his scores checked. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 too many associations and too much cost involved in this game. We have enough enemies without excluding people from within. If I joined every association I would not be able to afford to go and shoot... let alone all the extra's. Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) I was against the levy from day 1 - the cost to the ground owner is the same regardless of the number of non CPSA members who shoot on a registered day. As an ex-ground operator I would comment that a shoot has fixed and variable costs, ie rent and staff are fixed, but other costs are relative to the number of shooters and some diminish as entries increase. There is therefore every reason for a ground to want to put through as many entries as possible, as there will be a break even no of entries and then a sliding scale of profit per entry as numbers increase over the threshold. If I were a ground owner i would want as few barriers as possible put in front of someone wanting to shoot at my ground. Agreed Note the minimum charge has to go to the CPSA - not the ground , so by the sounds of it many grounds who are only charging the minimum are not generating the additional income that some of you think they are. True If it is prize fees you are after then the cost to enter the prize paying competition will need to be higher, so maybe an extra levy should be put on the competition shooters, after all it is their scores that are being checked by a ref - the birds only guy does not need his scores checked. The Day Ticket "levy" is fixed to compensate the ground owner and CPSA for the extra work involved in a reg shoot. The Prize fund is not set, it can be £2-00 on a Prize Competition entry, or £10-00. Its not set by the CPSA and is not part of their funding. The ground owner decides what the extra will be, and ALL the extra money belongs to the Comp entry shooters, none of it to either the CPSA or the Ground. I think that the level that shooters will accept as an addition to a clays only entry for the prize fund is pretty self regulating. If a ground owner pitches the differential too high, he will get few comp entries. If too low the prize fund will be miserable and not attract people. This ain't broke in my estimation, so no fix required David I hope the CPSA takes some not of the emerging opinion. Edited January 22, 2009 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 What does it pay out to the lower ranks then? well go to the british or english open sporting and you will see that the A, B, C class shooters receive more prize money in there classes than AAA, and AA. it dont make sense to me. all the money should go in the pot regardless of class then should be split evenly between classes as a bare minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 well go to the british or english open sporting and you will see that the A, B, C class shooters receive more prize money in there classes than AAA, and AA.it dont make sense to me. all the money should go in the pot regardless of class then should be split evenly between classes as a bare minimum. No, that doesn't make much sense to me either. Where's the logic behind that, I wonder? I don't think doing away with birds only would help though. If a shooter doesn't want to pay high entry fees for a competition that he's not good enough to win, if you take the birds only option away, he'll go shoot elsewhere, then the ground owner loses out. Most birds only shooters are probably low in their class, assuming they have a classification, and don't see why they should subsidise the prize fund for the usual winners. Even in B and C class, the winners are usually the same faces - the gentle art of sandbagging Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Theres two types of championship prize funds. Your std registered shoot, county, inter-counties etc all have prize funds administered by the ground. The rules of division are only that all monies collected must be handed back to the shooters, The amounts, number of qualifying classes and divisions, ie A B C Ladies vets juniors etc is down to the ground, but the CPSA shoot program has parameters in it to allow automatic calculations once the ground owner has set the appropriate parameters. Any registered shoot operator can print off the prize fund, how it was generated by entrants, and how it has been awarded. Major Champs, ie BO etc, administered by the CPSA themselves, have strict existing rules within the championship system for how the money is collected and paid out. There is usually no clays only option, so the prize fund can be quite large, and all classes and divisions should have some prize payout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Most birds only shooters are probably low in their class, assuming they have a classification, and don't see why they should subsidise the prize fund for the usual winners. Even in B and C class, the winners are usually the same faces - the gentle art of sandbagging This actually refers to my original point on the other thread. I don't claim to be the best shot in the world, and I shoot clays only because it would appear to me to be the thing most suitable for me. i.e the cheapest. Why should I pay more when I'm not in with a chance of winning anything? It doesnt make sense. And if extra money from birds only shooters goes in the ground owners claw, as someone said on here, why are they sniffy about them? None of it makes any sense. If there wasnt birds only options, then everyone who shot at a ground (Horne as an example) would have to be a member of the CPSA. Or am I wrong? My other club, and every other club I've seen, offers a discount to members, e.g 14 for a round of sporting at Headley for members, or £18.00 for non members. Yet all the conversations I've seen here seem to suggest that you should pay more if you're a member, to subsidise the prize money, thats won by the same few people every week anyway. I remain confused, and still havent voted in your poll as I feel I'm missing out on information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 OK, there is a whole raft of shooting options and costs: A club, from hay bale to premier can have a membership. Sometimes the club is "closed" ie members only only ( sometimes a guest arrangement), but no walk in outsiders. If the club has members and open shooters, there will usually be two rates for entry, a higher one for walk in open shooters. This club could be completely outside the CPSA, or just affiliated to it ( ie a ground member but not registered to run CPSA competition. Often at these sort of shoots, costs are lowered by self scoring etc. The club may run its own competitions, for prizes or money, and may even run a split cost entry system of clays only and prize fund. All of these, how-ever, have nothing to do with the CPSA other than in general CPSA rules and regulations are still used as the guidelines for running these shoots. If the club is Registered or above with the CPSA, this means the layout has been approved for CPSA Registered Competition. The club can still run all the practice options and have its own club competitions, as described above, but the club may also advertise a CPSA Registered Competition. If the round is such, there will be a Safety Officer, An overseeing Referee, and markers at every stand / layout. All the scores are marked according to the rules book, and there is a jury system for disputes. Both the shooters card and a mastercard at each stand are marked to prevent cheating. The layout and target quality needs to meet rules book standards. The registered ground has options of making these competitions exclusive to CPSA members, or allowing non-members to shoot in the Day Ticket system. Clubman members can also shoot at their home ground in registered. The fee charged for the entry is still entirely in the grounds hands, and they a still have a members and non-members entry fee, prize fund or no prize fund, and the prize fund amount is set by the ground, and always optional entry to the shooter ( except Major Champs). The quality of operation and costs of running a registered shoot are appreciably higher than just club practice. Target quality is usually better with more variety, and a range from easy to diabolical to allow the C grade to hit a few, while there is something to sort out the A boys. Generally, if you are shooting 35 ex 50 at a hay baler, and go to a reg sporting, you are likely to return 50-60%, rather than 70% scores, as the targets will be more testing. As with anything, you pay for what you get, and there should be a noticeable difference in the quality of the scoring, targets and layout with a registered shoot, compared with practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I agree with what you say – you get what you pay for. The issue here is to make sure shooters- new and old – have plenty of places to go shooting. I guess the issue can raise its head if a person is near to a CPSA registered ground, but has no other local clay shooting. They can feel penalised if they have to pay a levy to shoot on some days, or as others have suggested in the past he cannot shoot at all if ‘birds only’ are banned! I guess if a ground want to concentrate on competition targets some or most of the time and charge accordingly then that is their commercial decision. What is needed is good guidance to all shooters, regardless of ability and depth of pocket where they can go shooting, so they too can make a decision without feeling penalised by lack of opportunity. Personally I have pretty well quit shooting at the grounds local to me due to cost, and have been lucky enough to join a small (60 members) private clay club – we shoo up to twice a month, we pay a peppercorn rent for the land, so our only real cost are the clays – so I will shoot a 50 birder for £6 – suits me. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yeah but the point is, I go to Horne, shoot clays only as I'm in no position to compete yet, and I suspect I get a bit of a sniff, now there is surely no better way for me to shoot, other than joining thier club and then presumably I'd get a discount, but then have to pay extra to compete still. I think really you're talking in general and I'm talking specific, I'll have a chat with them if I get there on sunday instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Exactly, why should you be penalised? It was originally 'sold' to me that the fee was to cover insurance! If, in your case, there was another ground or facility near by that offered as good a target selection as Horne - but did NOT charge the levy I bet you would go there. Unless you have another facility near then the local supplier has you by the short & curlies, and this is, in my opinion, wrong! If shooting grounds / clubs were better at promoting themselves then I think the competition would make some grounds smarter and more comparative in every sense of the word. Ultimately the CPSA will do what they think is right for them and their members and their member grounds – but of course CPSA members account for less than 10% of active clay shooters – so I just hope the grounds will keep seeing where their greatest potential for income is! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Exactly, why should you be penalised? It was originally 'sold' to me that the fee was to cover insurance! If, in your case, there was another ground or facility near by that offered as good a target selection as Horne - but did NOT charge the levy I bet you would go there. Unless you have another facility near then the local supplier has you by the short & curlies, and this is, in my opinion, wrong! If shooting grounds / clubs were better at promoting themselves then I think the competition would make some grounds smarter and more comparative in every sense of the word. Ultimately the CPSA will do what they think is right for them and their members and their member grounds – but of course CPSA members account for less than 10% of active clay shooters – so I just hope the grounds will keep seeing where their greatest potential for income is! David I think the term levy is clouding the debate. 20yrs ago the CPSA charged a Levy on all shooters at registered shoots. This was a pay as you go scheme, rather than increasing membership, and was designed to clear a deficit the CPSA had at that time. It only lasted a year or two. There was also, long ago, a "Green Card" system. This was something like the Day Pass in place now, and that may have had a days insurance in it - it was before my time so I can't comment on its specific workings. The current "Day Pass" has never had insurance in it. CPSA members ( and BASC) are all insured where-ever they shoot. A registered shoot is insured by the ground owner by definition, so entrants don't need external insurance. The CPSA has never promoted the Day Pass as including insurance or suggested it does. The fee was simply a way of allowing the ground to legitimise a common practice of allowing non-CPSA members to practice within a CPSA registered shoot that was supposedly exclusive to CPSA members. It is, in principle, a pay-as-you-go scheme again. You have the choice, pay the Day Ticket, or pay CPSA membership. If you do the latter, there are additional benefits, ie you get a classification and can enter the prize fund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 OK, I accept what you say - but I can assure you I was told by the CPSA that insurance was the reason for the £2.50 charge that went directly to the CPSA. Is the issue here that the CPSA say only CPSA members can shoot at registered events so the £2.50 gives you 'temporary' CPSA membership? If so why did they not just change the rules - and legitimise what was already going on at loads of grounds anyway - and let non CPSA members shoot 'birds only - why the £2.50 charge? Freedom of choice is a good thing, and I am all in favor of that and I agree that there are many benefits of being a CPSA member, not least of all the classification system, the mag, representation etc - well worth the membership fee if clay pigeon shooting is your main thing- no arguments there at all from me But I wonder what the CPSA do with all these £2.50's , is it used to help fund specific projects for clay shooting, like offering discounts for kids at shooting grounds for example? I am not knocking it if they use the cash for something - great idea, but if it just goes to swell the £2 million they already have in the bank David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 i really dont see the point in the levy, its just another scam so the cpsa can drive around in another range rover. charge the same price for cpsa and non cpsa members , but only the cpsa members will be eligible for the money. if they want to win the money they will more than likely join the cpsa. its really that simple! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 (edited) OK, I accept what you say - but I can assure you I was told by the CPSA that insurance was the reason for the £2.50 charge that went directly to the CPSA. The current Day Pass scheme was first muted at a regional ground owners meeting in the South West in, I think, 2004. I was at that meeting. The idea was transported around each regional meeting that year, and was implemented the following year. I worked at CPSA HQ at the time and was directly involved in the development process of the idea ( although I disagreed with some elements of its implementation). The CPSA has a master policy that insures members. There is no scope in that for reselling day insurance, and, as all grounds affiliated or registered with the CPSA must hold full P/L insurance, absolutely no need for insurance in the day fees. Most insurance questions at CPSA would be handed to me to answer, or one of the other two managers. The scheme workings were all briefed to all CPSA staff and its unlikely anybody at CPSA HQ will have told you or anybody that the Day Ticket was for insurance, its just one of those myths that get into circulation when assumptions are made. Is the issue here that the CPSA say only CPSA members can shoot at registered events so the £2.50 gives you 'temporary' CPSA membership? Thats correct If so why did they not just change the rules - and legitimise what was already going on at loads of grounds anyway - and let non CPSA members shoot 'birds only - why the £2.50 charge? b]Because, thats why you join the CPSA, for the right to enter their contests. The primary purpose of any sporting NGB is to oversee and run contests, for which revenue is required. The probability of allowing what is suggested is that there will be a large number who would prefer to drop their membership but shoot the reg round without classification, as what the want is the course quality but are not interested in the grading. Without a pay-as-you-go fee for these shooters, there could be a large revenue loss. This is the real question the poll is about, what do shooters think ( and they favour Davids view). Freedom of choice is a good thing, and I am all in favor of that and I agree that there are many benefits of being a CPSA member, not least of all the classification system, the mag, representation etc - well worth the membership fee if clay pigeon shooting is your main thing- no arguments there at all from me But I wonder what the CPSA do with all these £2.50's , is it used to help fund specific projects for clay shooting, like offering discounts for kids at shooting grounds for example? I am not knocking it if they use the cash for something - great idea, but if it just goes to swell the £2 million they already have in the bank Not a lot because there aren't many of them. The scheme was proposed to legitimise the existing and continuing practice of allowing non-CPSA members to shoot the same course as Registered shooters. The fairly small number of clubs that operate the Day Ticket system, means that the revenue is not at all significant, and the money simply goes into the main revenue stream to pay for HQ staff including the Scores and Fixtures secretary, Championships Manager and Technical staff who maintain the systems. The CPSA reserves tend to fluctuate between £250k and £500k - never £2m. Originally the reserve was maintained as being sufficient to carry over a years staff salaries in the event of a disaster, but the view now is that the reserve should be reduced and spent on promoting shooting. Amounts were allocated from reserves to spend on promoting the sport in the last three years, about £150k I believe David BASC is not a sporting body, but lets make a parallel. As a member of BASC ( which I am), there are things BASC do I can participate in. Some I have to pay for and are exclusive to BASC members. Some are free, to BASC members. Does BASC allow non-BASC members to participate in the charged events at all? and if so, at the same prices as the members? I think not, so why should the CPSA? Edited January 24, 2009 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Yeah but the point is, I go to Horne, shoot clays only as I'm in no position to compete yet, and I suspect I get a bit of a sniff, now there is surely no better way for me to shoot, other than joining thier club and then presumably I'd get a discount, but then have to pay extra to compete still. I think really you're talking in general and I'm talking specific, I'll have a chat with them if I get there on sunday instead. Everybody who can pull the trigger can compete. Thats what the grading system is about, you shoot in your class against people of similar ability. You then have the dual challenges, one is to move up the gradings, and the other is to win your class. Everybody can compete, because they can compete both to improve their personal best and average, compete against yourself, and they can compete with others. Rest assured, what-ever you think of your standard, there are others scoring lower out there but enjoying the competitive spirit of shooting. There should only be a difference in entry fee if you enter the prize fund, and this is not obligatory. If you join both CPSA and Horne you should get both lower round prices and the benefits of classification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Hey up, don't forget the sand baggers too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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