Salop Matt Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Well am so lost and confused reading this which isnt helped by the fact am half asleep ! We have a little jack, he is a shorty but as soft as a brush and not snappy or yappy and I very much doubt he would know what to do with a rat or mouse other than head for his moms arms scared. His mother and farther did ratting and went shooting. Now at the moment am struggling to work out which catogry our toby falls into ! He isnt miniture but he is a short a$$ so am guessing he would be a QA type either way as long as he is happy and healthy as we love him to bits and he is a pet not a working dog although he does enjoy gamefairs and the hog roasts that come with them Edited July 29, 2009 by salop sniper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Now at the moment am struggling to work out which cat our toby falls into ! Being a terrier, I'm sure if he fell into a cat he'd know what to do with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 I asked the Mrs if she agreed about toby possibly being a QA .. . . . . . . apparently not ! SO he must just be a short A$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusk2dawn Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 No offence bud, ive been reading through some of your past posts and you really do talk some crud!!.. to me your dogs look like show stuff and look like there bred for looks first, not working ability atall ... i have a russell, oopss sorry jack russell from worker to worker, lakie pup from known earth dog lines oddly they both didnt come with papers there not registered with any of these clubs you talk about, im sad becuase i would have liked to wipe my bum on the paper that the club provides its that important! some of your quotes below The short legged little teriers, sometimes called Queen Anne Jacks or Irish Jacks, are not proper Jack Russell Terriers. This type of dog is also sadly what many people think a Jack Russell Terrier is. They are also usually the snappy nasty ones which has got the breed a bad name in some circles. All my dogs are registered with the JRTCGB, the club for the genuine Jack Russell Terrier, and I have their pedigrees going back six generations of good working Russell stock. God ive been hunting with airguns for years, never joined a club.. hhmmm i must not be a hunter if i dont meet the clubs specs and join straight away!! i must be an armchair fanatic who reads to much about trump on wikipedia LOL. So if a jack russell isnt registered with the club, it means its not a jack russell? what are you saying??? how big is a jack russell or how small until its not a jack russell? pedigree jack russells hahaha ive heard it all NOW! I bet your pups come with abit of paper dont they and a big ££££ just out of interest how much do you sell a pup for? Lets say you breed a pup from your lines yeah, and the pup has a problem with its ears, they both stick up?? then what?? its not a jack russell its a vicious little throw back from the diluted gene pool that attacks you at the shows you go to arround the country!!! dogs are a very good judge of charactor my freind and if a dog takes a dislike to you its normally for a good reason!! haha.. Maybe you want to scream when people ask you if there parsons becausedeep down you know they are! and you are ashamed that you've payed through the nose and lined someone elses pockets full of cash for show ring stuff!! when people stop me in the street they ask are they working terriers.. there both crackers them.. never ever had anyone ask is my russell a parson.. so maybe your the one with the problem mate Whether or not a Russell falls into a particular category or not does not interest me a jot, I have always had a soft spot for them, they are great little dogs with the fearless heart of a Lion, a pure joy to watch working. Always at the shows there is a great deal of interest and rivalry between the Long legged uns and the short legged uns! Would you please post a pic or two of your Russells, I,m sure theres more than me interested in a comparison. Rgds D2D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) the funny thing is its only one groups opinion of what a Jack Russel is as there is no pedigree to speak of so you can call your short legged dog a Jack Russel if you fancy or your parsons on a jack Russel as well. Just because some group says they have the breed specifics thats only in their eyes and not in any proper recognised capability. Edited July 29, 2009 by al4x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terriersport Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Edited July 29, 2009 by terriersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 No offence bud, ive been reading through some of your past posts and you really do talk some crud!!.. to me your dogs look like show stuff and look like there bred for looks first, not working ability atall ... i have a russell, oopss sorry jack russell from worker to worker, lakie pup from known earth dog lines oddly they both didnt come with papers there not registered with any of these clubs you talk about, im sad becuase i would have liked to wipe my bum on the paper that the club provides its that important! some of your quotes below The short legged little teriers, sometimes called Queen Anne Jacks or Irish Jacks, are not proper Jack Russell Terriers. This type of dog is also sadly what many people think a Jack Russell Terrier is. They are also usually the snappy nasty ones which has got the breed a bad name in some circles. All my dogs are registered with the JRTCGB, the club for the genuine Jack Russell Terrier, and I have their pedigrees going back six generations of good working Russell stock. God ive been hunting with airguns for years, never joined a club.. hhmmm i must not be a hunter if i dont meet the clubs specs and join straight away!! i must be an armchair fanatic who reads to much about trump on wikipedia LOL. So if a jack russell isnt registered with the club, it means its not a jack russell? what are you saying??? how big is a jack russell or how small until its not a jack russell? pedigree jack russells hahaha ive heard it all NOW! I bet your pups come with abit of paper dont they and a big ££££ just out of interest how much do you sell a pup for? Lets say you breed a pup from your lines yeah, and the pup has a problem with its ears, they both stick up?? then what?? its not a jack russell its a vicious little throw back from the diluted gene pool that attacks you at the shows you go to arround the country!!! dogs are a very good judge of charactor my freind and if a dog takes a dislike to you its normally for a good reason!! haha.. Maybe you want to scream when people ask you if there parsons becausedeep down you know they are! and you are ashamed that you've payed through the nose and lined someone elses pockets full of cash for show ring stuff!! when people stop me in the street they ask are they working terriers.. there both crackers them.. never ever had anyone ask is my russell a parson.. so maybe your the one with the problem mate The tone of your post says much about you and it also shows your ignorance on the work of such terrier clubs and breeding. My dogs look like quality dogs, or as you put it, 'Show Dogs', because I breed them and years of breeding by some of the UK's top working terrier breeders has helped produced such good lines. For better or for worse I try and keep the best I breed for myself, as I not only work them but also show them at working terrier shows. None of my dogs have under or over-shot mouths, none of their ears stand up and their chests can also easily be spanned, this is because all those faults have been bred out and I have none of them in my lines. I have also never said that not belonging to a club or having your dogs registered means your dogs are sh-t, or you are not a hunter or indeed they are not working dogs, but as someone who supposedly works your dogs you should know better than to slag these clubs off. If it wasn't for clubs like the JRTCGB, The National Working Terrier Federation or the Fell and Moorland Working Terrier Club, people like you would NOT be able to work your terriers today or even get their tails docked. Like it or not you have these clubs to thank for being able to still work your dogs legally, best you don't ever forget that. The short-legged little terrier sometimes called Queen Ann Jacks are NOT proper Jack Russell Terriers. Jack Russell Terriers were bred to run with the hounds, these short legged little dogs could never do that and I know of no Terrierman who uses such a dog for work below ground. Have you ever judged a Working Terrier Show ? Would you even know what to look for in picking the best terrier ? Or are you the sort who would fall to pieces in the ring when having to make a decision, and end up giving it to the dog with the most scars on it's face even though it's top line is like a U-bend and it's legs are bowed with a shot jaw ? I have judged working terrier shows many times in the UK and also abroad, people ask me to judge because they obviously feel I do a good job and I know what I am doing. This year I've judged the Hampshire and Bedfordshire County Shows and next month I'm judging a UK Working Terrier National Championship as one of the three judges. If you have judged working terriers, then you will also know that the dogs which are likely to sink their teeth into you are not the working terriers, which are usually as good as gold, but it's the family pets that do it which are brought into the ring by the owner trying to win a rosette for Tiddles. You can slag my dogs off all you like, they have won some of the top hunt working terrier shows, judged by some of the top working terrier judges in the country, so do yourself a favour and stop talking rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) i dont work my dogs on charley, i have no acess .. i rat with mine, i love it they love it, thats not to say they wouldnt go to ground, my russell dog has on a few occassions, its not my sort of thing, but im not agaisnt it either... its just not for me, nor will i lie and say my dogs are working charley, because there not.. to say your working your terriers on fox and put a pic up of a bunch of showring stuff is quite funny.. they look like there booked in the salon twice a month, my 10 month old pup has more scars and hes only seen rats .. your quoting saying that this group was trying to get reckonized for various reasons i.e money so out of interest what is the going rate for one of your pups? youve bred them sire n dam from proven working stock? lets see the sire and dam of the pups? Not everyone gets the chance to work their dogs on Charlie, and over the years I have had periods where I've had no land to work them on, so ratting, bushing etc is always a good outlet to work the dogs. In fact I find ratting hard to beat for fun. My dogs look good because I look after them, just because they are not covered in dirt and sand doesn't mean they are not workers. That photo was taken at nearly ten yards, how you expect to pick out scars at that distance is beyond me. You don't know me and you don't know my dogs, so don't suppose things you know nothing about, it just makes you look stupid. I enclose a picture of last years winners at the JRTCGB National Show. Pretty looking Show Dogs ? The winner belongs to Kevin Allan, Hunt Terrierman for the Bicester and Whaddon Chase Hunt. The dog which got reserve is worked by her partner. Can't be a worker though can it, you can't see any scars on it and it's jaw is not hanging off --- Edited July 29, 2009 by Santlache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terriersport Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Edited July 29, 2009 by terriersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 I don't disagree in the slightest that it matters not what a dog looks like if it's wanted for work and does, then that's all that matters. But if you want to show them in a working terrier ring, it does matter what they look like, because if the dog has five inch bow legs and a 20 inch body with stick up ears, it hasn't a hope in hell of winning against better bred examples. When I judge a working terrier show, I like every other judge in any dog show around the world do so on a breed standard, and those for the Jack Russell Terrier as a working terrier also pretty much stands for a Lakeland, Patterdale, Fell or Border Terrier, except the Border is not docked. You look at the same things on each dog from the end of it's tail to it's nose. It's the younger dogs which tend to be shown regularly, and any dog which has worked Charlie will have signs of work on them. However, saying that, a dog can be three years old and not worked yet but that is not a fault against them if they are not marked up, as they could still possibly do a job. But if it was between two identical and good dogs in the championship of the same age and one had signs of work and the other didn't, then the one with work on it will win. I know of dogs which have been marked up on purpose by their owners, so as to look like they are regular workers. I also know of people who breed supposed working terriers and have for years, but they have never done a days work with their dogs in their lives. As to what I charge for my pups, it all depends what they are like and if they are a bitch or a dog, and I decide then for each dog as and when it comes to it. But however much it is it has nothing whatsoever to do with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terriersport Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Edited July 30, 2009 by terriersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickyspringer Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 this thread is awful, I think your dogs are very parson like, very showy and I don't like the way you criticise the small legged russell, these russell's aren't bred for looks,these dogs are bred to be fit for purpose and do the job, I have a friend who is a true terrier man and i can assure you his russell will go to ground and do the job, he does it on a regular basis, and he looks nothing like your dogs, small in stature and so on, He came from a hunt up in N.Wales, the denbigh hunt or thelike i think, so please be open minded and don't criticise these small statured dogs, to me your really showing your show side, and being very hypercritacal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terriersport Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Edited July 29, 2009 by terriersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_commoner Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 i think the point is that there is nothing wrong with breeding working dogs that look great too, if they win a few rosettes then great...................its doesn't mean they dont work surely the highest standard of any dog is one that can carry out the task that it was bred for very well and that looks great too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 You are entitled to your opinion, I am just stating that these short legged dogs are not proper Jack Russell Terriers, yet many people mistakenly think they are. They are Jack Russell cross bred dogs. I also don't doubt they are good little workers and I've seen them in action, although personally I would prefer a larger dog myself, because they will stand a far better chance with Charlie if they have to mix it and are not at a disadvantage at being half his weight. When people slag me off and give it show dogs this, show dogs that, they don't work, especially with the ignorance that is been shown on here from supposed terrier people, then I am fully entitled to reply back. Yes I am lucky that I can breed show quality dogs and I have done very well out of them in the past, qualifying for all the major working terrier championships in the UK, but they also do what they were bred for and work. To get dogs like that it takes years of selected breeding, on looks and on working ability, breeding out faults, picking a good sire for a dam which you think will improve on what you have. Some times you come up trumps and get both a good looking dog and an excellent worker, you never know until you try them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 i think the point is that there is nothing wrong with breeding working dogs that look great too, if they win a few rosettes then great...................its doesn't mean they dont work surely the highest standard of any dog is one that can carry out the task that it was bred for very well and that looks great too Spot on. Well said that man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_commoner Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 by the way i have had 2 queen ann terriers, and i bought my sister one for her birthday last year for the rats at the stables ................. the first 2 both called susie were great and my sisters 'pip' is brilliant too, they were all from working backgrounds and would definately not win any rosettes ! i have to say though that my next dog, and one that i would already have to accompany my cocker, if it werent for my wife being preggers, would be a long legged JRT, much more versatile in my opinion - i have to say santlache yours are good looking dogs, if they work hard too, which from your posts i am sure they do, then put me down for one ifg oyu have a litter in about 12 months time !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terriersport Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Edited July 29, 2009 by terriersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 So you have admitted it!, you breed for looks rather than working ability, you are breeding to win rossetes! who gives a crud about rossetes and winning shows? at the end of the day if you had two ugly terriers, dog & bitch and they where the best workers youve owned, but one has an ear sticking up and the other one is "10 tts you wouldnt breed from them, you'd rather use 2 non good looking terriers from okish stock lol !!! HAHA.. no pup prices hhmmmm, because there probably ££££ no pics of sire or dam either...? hhhmm how old is the sire and dam to the recent pups youve just bred you puppy pedlar? Have you always been a *****, or is it just on here ? You have clearly showed us all your ignorance on terriers and breeding time and time again, you also don't work your dogs below ground, so you are hardly one to talk or slag me off about working my dogs for what they are bred for. In fact to date you have spoken nothing but utter ****e. You are probably the sort of person who thinks a dog with a smashed up face and it's jaw hanging off is a good working terrier. A terrier with a smashed up face is not a good working dog, it's a stupid dog which hasn't learnt to stand back and work properly, taking minimal punishment. My dogs are bred to stand back and work a fox in the traditional and legal manner, not dive in and attack it's quarry. I do not have or want a hard dog in my kennel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_commoner Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Out of interest how would it be more versatile? my lakie pup towers over my russell, but the russell is more handy because he can get into tighter spots.. seems sure i get that, hence having had 2 and bought my sister one for the rats, but being that touch bigger may be a advantage in other situations ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terriersport Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Edited July 29, 2009 by terriersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digdeep Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Have you always been a *****, or is it just on here ? You have clearly showed us all your ignorance on terriers and breeding time and time again, you also don't work your dogs below ground, so you are hardly one to talk or slag me off about working my dogs for what they are bred for. In fact to date you have spoken nothing but utter ****e. You are probably the sort of person who thinks a dog with a smashed up face and it's jaw hanging off is a good working terrier. A terrier with a smashed up face is not a good working dog, it's a stupid dog which hasn't learnt to stand back and work properly, taking minimal punishment. My dogs are bred to stand back and work a fox in the traditional and legal manner, not dive in and attack it's quarry. I do not have or want a hard dog in my kennel. My terriers are 100% earthdogs, that is their job, and they do it very well. There is a difference between a dog that bays and a dog that stands back. Where I come from a dog that stands back is classed as a jibber, it is a coward, it is no good, not a worker at all. A dog needs to be up close to its quarry (within a few inches) and keep charlie boxed up, this means the dog is going to get marked up as charlie comes forward as the dog shouldnt move back. When I dig I only want to dig downwards, not down then across because the dog isnt capable of holding its own. I hate it when I see where people trench earths because the dog isnt upto work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Out of interest how would it be more versatile? my lakie pup towers over my russell, but the russell is more handy because he can get into tighter spots.. seems Height doesn't matter, chest size does, they can fold their legs up easily or push them out straight and crawl, but they can't fold their chest up. That's why a working terrier judge pays particular attention to the size of a dogs chest, and they should always be able to span it with both hands - from the back of the front legs longest middle fingers underneath, to thumbs across the top, they should join up. When done properly a judge will do it with the dogs front legs up pointing forwards at right angles standing on his back legs. In this manner you can also check at the same time if a dog's front legs and paws are straight or crooked. When spanning it's chest the back legs should always remain on the ground taking the terriers weight. They should never be lifted up in the air with both feet off the ground for spanning, because the dog will puff it's chest out and give a false idea of it's size. Read Bob Clough's book, "Down to Earth, Jack Russell Terriers" Bob is one of the UK's best known terriermen and has bred some of the finest working Russells in the country. In his book he has an excellent section on judging terriers. One of his dogs sired my best working bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digdeep Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Sorry pressed the post button before I had finished writing lol. A hard dog is in my mind is as bad as a dog that stands back, it will be laid up more often than its out working, which is no good as you need to be working them regularly during the season when called out. I would never breed for looks, much prefering to breed for temprement. I carnt span my dogs, they are long legged, they are ugly, but find me a better worker, you wouldnt have a chance. This isnt a dig at any of you guys either, I'm just putting across what a working earthdog should work like, in the eyes of every terrierman I have ever known. Just for the record I have also known hunt terriermen that wouldnt know a good dog if it jumped up and bit him on the ****, so dont think because he/she says there a hunts terrierman that their god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted July 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 My terriers are 100% earthdogs, that is their job, and they do it very well. There is a difference between a dog that bays and a dog that stands back. Where I come from a dog that stands back is classed as a jibber, it is a coward, it is no good, not a worker at all. A dog needs to be up close to its quarry (within a few inches) and keep charlie boxed up, this means the dog is going to get marked up as charlie comes forward as the dog shouldnt move back. When I dig I only want to dig downwards, not down then across because the dog isnt capable of holding its own. I hate it when I see where people trench earths because the dog isnt upto work. One of my young bitches is a bit of what you say is a jibber, she'll work a fox baying away but won't get too near. She's still young and I hope will get better as her confidence grows. Earlier this year she spent an hour working charlie and came out after taking a hefty swipe. I sent her back down and she worked again but needs bringing on a bit. In her defence it was an extensive earth, chambers, tunnels going here there and everywhere. In hindsight not ideal for only her second time working a fox. We then later used my other bitch, the mother of the younger one and the vixen was eventually boxed in for us in a chamber and dispatched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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