Piebob Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Yet another plumbing query. Situation At present I have an old oil-fueled boiler for central heating and hot water. I also have an emersion option as a hot water backup. I've been told that the boiler is working away fine but is at around 86% efficiency (by the oil provider / service company) A plumber has told me that he wouldn't recommend a combi as some of the pipework throughout the house looks pretty old, and he feels that the additional pressure with a combi may lead to leaks and a lot or rework. The hot water tank does not have much head of water - it's only about 6 ft off the floor - so I have poor flow rate to one of the bathrooms which has only a bath and I'd like a shower. He has suggested a pressurised hot water tank and new condensing boiler. The plumber explained all this to me at my request (i.e. he's not touting for business) but I forgot to ask him how much it might be. The boiler needs to heat 12 radiators, the tank needs to supply a family-sized home but I'm not sure what that means in terms of capacity of each. So, whadda ya think? How much might I be for supply and installation of a new boiler and tank as above and carry out pipe work / plumbing etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 New more efficient boiler - circa £1000 Preinsulated hot water cylinder - Circa £200 Booster pump on hot water (£250 fom wickes) Don't like combis - life too short (although some will dissagree) D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) its tough too price a job without seeing it mate for a few obvious reasons... mostly because you cant accurately size the job.... as said above by yellow bear, your high efficiency condensing boiler,complete with standard rear exit (through the wall) flue, will set you back around a grand with the vat on. this would be an average cost for an average middlie of the road boiler.... me, id have a vaillant, no question,everytime. other boilers come close, worcester for instance, but in my own opinion, despite there higher price tag,they're not a patch on the vaillant. if you need a vertical flue and a roof slate kit etc.. the price will differ slightly, as will the labour cost, obviously. http://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/heati...en_vent_EU.html o.k, cylinders.... the type yellow bear sugggests im guessing is a standard indirect open vented cylinder at the price he suggests well, you asked for a "pressurised" hot water cylinder.....what your asking for is infact called an unvented hot water cylinder.... take a look at the link below, this is what your after, the price is high and this one illustrated by screwfix is a cheap one, id have a magaflow myself. the labour charge for one of these also would be more than a standard dhw,open vented cyl installation....take a looksy.. http://www.screwfix.com/prods/86599/Plumbi...210Ltr-Indirect http://www.heatraesadia.com/hs/heatraes.nsf finally, your price will depend on a few other varying factors mate.... the one i would take the greatest heed from is that the cheapest price isnt always the best mate... take serious note of that. me i do the job to the letter, i myself have exceptionally high standards of workmanship and will not cut corners etc... your paying for it, your paying for it to be done right........ others...well...... ive seen some installations that make me giggle, ive seen some that make me want to cry for the customer and ive seen some that need reporting to RIDDOR and the HSE. unvented cylinders are not something you want a cowboy installing, in fact you need to be qualified in this specific area, unvented.... (i am, but its not somthing i do everyday..). given the cost of materials alone here, i would consider for the size of your house looking into the installatoin of a combi... you could get a vaillant ecotec pro 28 high eff condensing boiler, all new pipework, all rads renewed... plenty of hot water flow from that boiler etc etc .... for less money then the open vented boiler and unvented hot water option.... lets just say, (depending on rad sizes..) i can do a complete installation of a vaillant, 7-8 rads, all new pipework etc etc wireless roomstat and programmer etc... for around 2.6k ... yours obviously would be a little higher as youve got a few more rads to consider..but at a guess it would come in under or around 3k....all done.....im sure your other option would be a similar price mate.... fitted to your old crusty pipework/rads/valves.....!!! hope this info helps... matty Edited March 9, 2009 by myzeneye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cap1len Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 its tough too price a job without seeing it mate for a few obvious reasons... mostly because you cant accurately size the job....as said above by yellow bear, your high efficiency condensing boiler,complete with standard rear exit (through the wall) flue, will set you back around a grand with the vat on. this would be an average cost for an average middlie of the road boiler.... me, id have a vaillant, no question,everytime. other boilers come close, worcester for instance, but in my own opinion, despite there higher price tag,they're not a patch on the vaillant. if you need a vertical flue and a roof slate kit etc.. the price will differ slightly, as will the labour cost, obviously. http://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/heati...en_vent_EU.html o.k, cylinders.... the type yellow bear sugggests im guessing is a standard indirect open vented cylinder at the price he suggests well, you asked for a "pressurised" hot water cylinder.....what your asking for is infact called an unvented hot water cylinder.... take a look at the link below, this is what your after, the price is high and this one illustrated by screwfix is a cheap one, id have a magaflow myself. the labour charge for one of these also would be more than a standard dhw,open vented cyl installation....take a looksy.. http://www.screwfix.com/prods/86599/Plumbi...210Ltr-Indirect http://www.heatraesadia.com/hs/heatraes.nsf finally, your price will depend on a few other varying factors mate.... the one i would take the greatest heed from is that the cheapest price isnt always the best mate... take serious note of that. me i do the job to the letter, i myself have exceptionally high standards of workmanship and will not cut corners etc... your paying for it, your paying for it to be done right........ others...well...... ive seen some installations that make me giggle, ive seen some that make me want to cry for the customer and ive seen some that need reporting to RIDDOR and the HSE. unvented cylinders are not something you want a cowboy installing, in fact you need to be qualified in this specific area, unvented.... (i am, but its not somthing i do everyday..). given the cost of materials alone here, i would consider for the size of your house looking into the installatoin of a combi... you could get a vaillant ecotec pro 28 high eff condensing boiler, all new pipework, all rads renewed... plenty of hot water flow from that boiler etc etc .... for less money then the open vented boiler and unvented hot water option.... lets just say, (depending on rad sizes..) i can do a complete installation of a vaillant, 7-8 rads, all new pipework etc etc wireless roomstat and programmer etc... for around 2.6k ... yours obviously would be a little higher as youve got a few more rads to consider..but at a guess it would come in under or around 3k....all done.....im sure your other option would be a similar price mate.... fitted to your old crusty pipework/rads/valves.....!!! hope this info helps... matty unfortunately vailant do not make oil fired appliances len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cap1len Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 does it have to be oil fired or do you have mains gas if you have mains gas good quality combi best option worcester/vailant len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) its tough too price a job without seeing it mate for a few obvious reasons... mostly because you cant accurately size the job....as said above by yellow bear, your high efficiency condensing boiler,complete with standard rear exit (through the wall) flue, will set you back around a grand with the vat on. this would be an average cost for an average middlie of the road boiler.... me, id have a vaillant, no question,everytime. other boilers come close, worcester for instance, but in my own opinion, despite there higher price tag,they're not a patch on the vaillant. if you need a vertical flue and a roof slate kit etc.. the price will differ slightly, as will the labour cost, obviously. http://www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/heati...en_vent_EU.html o.k, cylinders.... the type yellow bear sugggests im guessing is a standard indirect open vented cylinder at the price he suggests well, you asked for a "pressurised" hot water cylinder.....what your asking for is infact called an unvented hot water cylinder.... take a look at the link below, this is what your after, the price is high and this one illustrated by screwfix is a cheap one, id have a magaflow myself. the labour charge for one of these also would be more than a standard dhw,open vented cyl installation....take a looksy.. http://www.screwfix.com/prods/86599/Plumbi...210Ltr-Indirect http://www.heatraesadia.com/hs/heatraes.nsf finally, your price will depend on a few other varying factors mate.... the one i would take the greatest heed from is that the cheapest price isnt always the best mate... take serious note of that. me i do the job to the letter, i myself have exceptionally high standards of workmanship and will not cut corners etc... your paying for it, your paying for it to be done right........ others...well...... ive seen some installations that make me giggle, ive seen some that make me want to cry for the customer and ive seen some that need reporting to RIDDOR and the HSE. unvented cylinders are not something you want a cowboy installing, in fact you need to be qualified in this specific area, unvented.... (i am, but its not somthing i do everyday..). given the cost of materials alone here, i would consider for the size of your house looking into the installatoin of a combi... you could get a vaillant ecotec pro 28 high eff condensing boiler, all new pipework, all rads renewed... plenty of hot water flow from that boiler etc etc .... for less money then the open vented boiler and unvented hot water option.... lets just say, (depending on rad sizes..) i can do a complete installation of a vaillant, 7-8 rads, all new pipework etc etc wireless roomstat and programmer etc... for around 2.6k ... yours obviously would be a little higher as youve got a few more rads to consider..but at a guess it would come in under or around 3k....all done.....im sure your other option would be a similar price mate.... fitted to your old crusty pipework/rads/valves.....!!! hope this info helps... matty All too true, but oil installations come under OFTEC regs, which is a minimum for commissioning for warranty purposes. But as you well known alot of plumbers who did not want to continue with Gas installations becuase they did not want the hassle of CORGI qualifications just continued doing oil stuff, with and without being OFTEC registered. The OFTEC regs are nowhere as stringent as CORGI as you well know. I had a BOULTER oil combi installed in a place of mine and it gave me good service for 10 years....but even so it was over 1200 quid then. I think Boulter boilers no longer exist and were bought out by worcester. Edited March 9, 2009 by starlight32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'm with Myzene, If you have access to gas go for a combi. With the right plumber he may use some of your plumbing but may not. I have put a large one in the 4 bed i am renovating and it was about that cost including some rads. I removed about half a ton of pipework and tanks etc from the old system so gained so much space. I like the cold water supply to all taps being direct so no smeggy cold tank involved which gives you more loft space and also reduces the risk of anything freezing in the loft in cold weather as there is nothing up there. The current one produces about 16 litres a minute of hot water so gives a very good shower, you never run out of hot water and it will be simple to change if and when it breaks. Add to that high efficiency and it really doesn't cost much to run. Your plumbers solution sounds like just as much upheaval and plenty of cost to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8landy Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Yet another plumbing query. Situation [*]At present I have an old oil-fueled boiler for central heating and hot water. [*]I've been told that the boiler is working away fine but is at around 86% efficiency (by the oil provider / service company) [*]The hot water tank does not have much head of water - it's only about 6 ft off the floor - so I have poor flow rate to one of the bathrooms which has only a bath and I'd like a shower. Are things not going a bit of track? 86% efficiency, are you sure they have worked this out correctly? Have they serviced it correctly? Are they just trying to sell you somthing? It might be worth getting a serivce done by an indipendant Discounting above, and all you want is a shower consider adding a dedicated pump for that shower, or even an electric heated shower. A properly set up oil system is more cost effective than gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 unfortunately vailant do not make oil fired appliances len doh !!! my mistake...please excuse my gaff, obviously im a gas engineer and just see in yellow... never looked at any oil fired boilers, i guess i should though....tisk tisk tisk.... if you dont have natural gas supply, you could also take a look at the lpg option...you would need a tank in the garden like with an oil fired system, but the installation cost of a combi, again. will out do the unvented hot water option.... (v8landy.....) as for the efficiency of you existing boiler.... take a look here... http://www.sedbuk.com/ this will tell you the exact efficiency rating of you boiler.... the data base is huge,so most appliances are on there... most people would be suprised,if not shocked, at the efficiency of their boilers....some old boilers are shocking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billywizz Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Well you have to ask yourself if you want to invest in the house long term ,3,000 or more or just get it working proper ,altered where needed. If you are looking at changeing cylinder then will you want to incorperate additional heating of water,ie wood burner,,solar,,heatpump,if so then the correct cylinder needs putting in now for the future. The boiler if its not more than fifteen years old will be in most cases fine,,we can usually get them to 88% effient ,thats fine ,its the older ones 20,25 year old ones at 75 % efficient that need changing. Can you get the water storage tank in the loft any higher?,,,for useing your stored hot water for showers a power shower,like mira excel xs £320 is brill,,,built in pump in the case boosts your pressure. If your water pressure is good then an unvented cylinder is good,as you have immersion heater is also present for backup. Oil combis are ok up to a few years old ,not many years,,,i am working on combis allthe time and they give my customers loads of grief,,,,you also have no back up immersion.. If possible avoid an oil combi,,,get cylinder and boiler. Oil combis are getting very expensive £1,700 or so. Oil condensing boiler and mains fed unvented cylinder much better and not nuch more money. perhaps stick with the boiler and see what else can be done. An OFTEC member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz2202 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Yet another plumbing query. Situation [*]A plumber has told me that he wouldn't recommend a combi as some of the pipework throughout the house looks pretty old, and he feels that the additional pressure with a combi may lead to leaks and a lot or rework. [*]The hot water tank does not have much head of water - it's only about 6 ft off the floor - so I have poor flow rate to one of the bathrooms which has only a bath and I'd like a shower. [*]He has suggested a pressurised hot water tank and new condensing boiler. Plumber does not reccomend a combi incase of leaks on the old pipe work, Then says lets pressurise the system with an unvented cylinder. cause for concern here me thinks, as both systems (combi and unvented) will be pressurised between 1.5 and 2 bar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8landy Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (v8landy.....)as for the efficiency of you existing boiler.... take a look here... http://www.sedbuk.com/ this will tell you the exact efficiency rating of you boiler.... the data base is huge,so most appliances are on there... most people would be suprised,if not shocked, at the efficiency of their boilers....some old boilers are shocking.... These are not working efficiencys. I was refereing to when our boiler is serviced the enginer always makes a note of the current running effienceny of the boiler ~95%, but refreing to the list of sedbuk my boiler is 86% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 These are not working efficiencys. I was refereing to when our boiler is serviced the enginer always makes a note of the current running effienceny of the boiler ~95%, but refreing to the list of sedbuk my boiler is 86% and how does he calculate this ? sedbuk and manufacturers ratings are not accurate in the sense that they are taken from a system set up in a work shop, not a real house in the real world, which will invariably always perform less efficient....therfore sedbuk ratings are always slightly higher then you would expect to find in a domestic situation.... now, no boiler that im aware of is 100% efficient and even the top notch boilers are probably gonna be running at around 95%... so im guessing if your boiler is not a new'ish 'a' rated high efficiency condensing boiler, then your "engineers" figure of 95% has been plucked out of the air, perhaps to illustrate how good a service he has done ? maybe im wrong mate, but i doubt it... not having a go mate, just some "engineers" will tell their customers anything they want to hear... if you were to ask me how efficient your boiler was, sedbuk would be the industry standard rule of thumb.... not some huge calculation relating to calorific values of gas/latent heat loss's through your flue etc etc ...believe me, it would take some thinking about to give you a figure there and then on site after a service.... a flue gas analyser will give you information on co/co2 ratios and other bits of info..but not really any efficiency readings.... anyway, if their not as you say "working efficiencys" what in the hell ae they ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8landy Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 You have miss read what I have said. If via sedbuk my boiler is quoted at 86%, I assume my engineer is refering to (via his working tests) it running at 95% of the sedbuk 86%. = 82% Or mabe it is another figure, either way it is running fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbeno Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 It could be his flue analyser indicating a reading of 95% efficiency but this just indicates that the gas is burning cleanly its not a indication of how efficient your boiler is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 thats right mate... gas rating the boiler will tell him how much gas its burning per hour..taking a flue gas analysis will tell him what is coming out the flue... co/o2/co2 ratios etc.. how much gas is present in the flue gasses etc etc... it wont tell him any efficiencies. so how he can determine its running at 95% of its rating of 86% i dont know... he can give it a thorough service and tell you its burning right, the right amount of gas etc.. and by visual indications along with flue gas analisys results, he can tell you its burning cleanly... but the efficiency of your heat exchanger will deteriorate from year to year with wear and corrosion etc, this will affect even sedbuks rating and is not something you engineer can do with out some pretty accurate, number crunching formulas... not saying it cant be done, but its not some thing ive ever done or heard of any usual gas man doing ? still not sure we're on the same wave length here mate, but still... running fine she may be mate,clean as a whislte and performing well... but running efficiently is a different thing.if its not a condensing boiler your throwing money out your flue, end of. think of your 82% efficient boiler like this... for every £10 worth of energy/gas you buy, your only getting £8.20's worth of energy or heat out.... not bad, but id rather be getting £9.80's worth out of my £10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billywizz Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 So how do you get £9.80 s worth of heat from £10 s worth if the sedbuk shows most oil boilers are running at 92 to 95% efficient,does not add up.And our oil flue analysers give a n efficiency reading so are you saying they tell lies.or is it a gimmick.By reading flue gases and flue temp an efficiency is given,,,if we take the reading before the boiler is up to temperature then it will show 95% as the boiler is sucking all the heat but when the boiler is up to temp the flue temp rises and then we willget perhaps 85 to 90 %,most condensing boilers will give us 95 to 98% ,,,only 6 to 10 % more efficient. The last range of oil boilers befors condensing boilers do work very well,,its only the twenty yar old ones ,perhaps down in the 70% efficient bracket that are wasteful. If you only work on gas then you will find oil is a completly diferent thing,,we change oil pressures and nozzle sizes to get the flue gas temp to 180 /190 and most boilers will give 88 % efficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzeneye Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 i dont work on oil, your right mate, and i know little about them... but i do know a percentage of unburnt gas can be lost through a flue...can unburnt oil ? i wouldnt have though so ? look at it like this... your equipment may be able to tell you the effinciency of the fuel being burnt and how well the burner is doing at giving clean,complete combustion... what it wont tell you is how efficient your appliance is at transfering and utilising the heat produced from that into the water in your heating system. if your appliance burns well and is great at combustion efficiency, but its heat transfer/exchanger system is of poor or older design you will still need to burn more fuel to reach desired heat levels... sedbuk take this info into account, a flue gas analyser dont. if your boiler is a modern condenser, with modern material heat exchanger, your gonna use less gas getting your system up to temp.... do you get the point im making ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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