Harnser Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 was talking to a friend today about rifle ballistics . He was under the impression that a bullet (say .308 150 grn ) fired vertically into the air would come back down to earth with enough velocity to kill any body that it struck . I was and am of the opinion that any said bullet dropping from say 5,000 feet could only fall at a maxim speed of terminal velocity ( approx 125 miles per hour ) and would not neccesarily be fatal even if you were struck on the head . Who is right . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I have a book, called Awakening the Dead, written by a Police forensic scientist, who investigated a case of a bloke up a ladder painting his house suddenly fell off the ladder dead. Upon investigation he had a 7.62 round inside him, entering around the clavicle and stopping just short of the waist are. This caused confusion as obviously a 7.62 round would easily penetrate further, if not exit completely, being FMJ. The culprit? A young squaddy on a range 7 miles away, fiting a gpmg on full auto and it ran away with him climbing higher into the air until it ran out. killed the poor bloke who was obvipously having the time of his life painting the house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shot shot Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 that was covered on an episode of mythbuster's, and if I remember right they were using a 30-06 (garand). they went out into the desert, hid under blast shielding and fired off a whole pile of rounds. they actually found some of the holes in the ground. but all the bullets were facing tip down, i.e. they had flown in like a very steep arc. they came to the conclusion that it was near impossible to fire a round totally vertically, and that the wind, temp etc would cause the bullet to fly in an arc, keep it stable in flight and so fall with plenty of energy to kill someone. the idea of dropping a round from 5000 feet and it killing someone is very unlikely, as the bullets fall side on, and, as you say only reach 125 ish mph. which probably would not have not much energy. (i'll let someone else do the math on energies) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Awakening the dead, author Brian J Heard the memoirs of Britain's top forensic scientist ISBN1-904034-62-4 I know he's hardly in the same league as mythbuster but still............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 The question is really whether terminal velocity (because that is as fast as the bullet will come down) provides enough kinetic energy to penetrate causing death. Don't know enough about anatomy to answer that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted March 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 The question is really whether terminal velocity (because that is as fast as the bullet will come down) provides enough kinetic energy to penetrate causing death. Don't know enough about anatomy to answer that! Some body is bound to have a chart . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I've just told you it is, it's in the book by the one time top forensic scientist in the country, bloke who got killed wasn't too interested in charts and terminal velocity, just the fact that his wound had become terminal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW682 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) The terminal velocity depends upon drag etc and will be different for different objects. 125 mph is the terminal velocity of a typical skydiver. According to wikipedia, if he pulls in his limbs to become streamlined T.V will increase to approx 200 mph which it says is approx the same as a falling 150g bullet! it then gives a reference to a 1920 US Army study, to which this is the link..link to website referencing US ARMY study In summary, it claims approx 30 ftlbs of energy. Certainly wouldn't volunteer to test the effect of that on the top of my head. Any takers? Edited March 30, 2009 by HW682 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr smith Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) I have a book, called Awakening the Dead, written by a Police forensic scientist, who investigated a case of a bloke up a ladder painting his house suddenly fell off the ladder dead. Upon investigation he had a 7.62 round inside him, entering around the clavicle and stopping just short of the waist are. This caused confusion as obviously a 7.62 round would easily penetrate further, if not exit completely, being FMJ. The culprit? A young squaddy on a range 7 miles away, fiting a gpmg on full auto and it ran away with him climbing higher into the air until it ran out. killed the poor bloke who was obvipously having the time of his life painting the house The question was about a bullet fired vertically and not at an angle as the case above.I saw the mythbusters programme and the bullets fired straight up would indeed be a little painful on return to earth but not enough to kill,those fired at an angle are a totally different case. Edited March 30, 2009 by mr smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 If the 30ft-lbs calculation is correct, I'd say it could kill you. A 12ft-lbs air rifle can kill at close range so with the added energy and sectional density of the bullet it should penetrate to the brain and do some serious damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr smith Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) Can't remember the in's and out's of their calculations but don't think it wasn't close to 30 ft/lbs.They dropped bullets onto a (dead)pigs head at whatever speed they reckoned would be terminal velocity and while it would sting they thought it would bruise and not much more. Edited March 30, 2009 by mr smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan.heywood Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 that was covered on an episode of mythbuster's, and if I remember right they were using a 30-06 (garand). they went out into the desert, hid under blast shielding and fired off a whole pile of rounds. they actually found some of the holes in the ground. but all the bullets were facing tip down, i.e. they had flown in like a very steep arc. they came to the conclusion that it was near impossible to fire a round totally vertically, and that the wind, temp etc would cause the bullet to fly in an arc, keep it stable in flight and so fall with plenty of energy to kill someone. the idea of dropping a round from 5000 feet and it killing someone is very unlikely, as the bullets fall side on, and, as you say only reach 125 ish mph. which probably would not have not much energy. (i'll let someone else do the math on energies) Yes they did cover it and the bullets they droped at the end from a purpose made rig fell side ways and they believed a bullet fired directly up would fall in the same manner, conclusion was the bullets were non leathal!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW682 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 There is a simple to use energy calculator here......Energy calculator For 150gr bullet, if you put in the popular terminal velocity of 125 mph it gives 11.2 ftlb. If you put in the higher figure of 200mph it gives 28 ftlb. HW682 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbonrocket Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 A 150 grain bullet at 11.2 foot pounds of energy falling on my head? I dont fancy that much. But.. I watched the footage of the Packistani troops victory shooting into the air with full auto's after the latest terrorist action. How many innocents fell to this? They are not reported or are there any? I could just imagine our police walking out after some local seige and shooting off a dozen rounds into the air for celabration. NOT! If the bullet falling caught you on an edge with its COG straight above on the skull, I would imagine you are going to need emergency medical attention. Carbon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr smith Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 A little info from the programme... http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/episode...ired_up_vo.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 The question was about a bullet fired vertically and not at an angle as the case above.I saw the mythbusters programme and the bullets fired straight up would indeed be a little painful on return to earth but not enough to kill,those fired at an angle are a totally different case. They didn't determine at what angle the fatal bullet left the gun at. LIke I tried to explain the squaddy fired the gpmg, and it "walked" upwards, increasing the angle with the recoil of every round fired, so the fatal bullet may have been vertical. Anyway, the story in the book is fact, not supposition by a tv show Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 When I was at the Ypres museum I was told by a battlefield guide that during WW1 German machine gunners would cause casualties in the British trenches by hosing them at a high angle so that the bullets fell vertically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I think we need some .30cals safely loaded to achieve 294 fps using 150 grainer's, see what the penetration is like how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilishdave Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 A human falling from 10K feet will travel at a terminal velocity IRo 127MPH a bullet is IRo 10x more dense than the human body and is much more stream lined (less drag) therefore its terminal velocity will be significantly more than that of a human. I would not expect the terminal velocity to be 10 times that of a human but at least two to three times more. Of interest at 100000 feet (thinner Air) a human will free fall at up to 600mph and it has been done!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I have a book, called Awakening the Dead, written by a Police forensic scientist, who investigated a case of a bloke up a ladder painting his house suddenly fell off the ladder dead. To quote the oldest joke in the world "Poor man, what an earth did his wife do?" - "she got someone else to finish the painting" - boom and boom.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I watched the footage of the Packistani troops victory shooting into the air with full auto's after the latest terrorist action. How many innocents fell to this? They are not reported or are there any? Apparently a large number of casualties result from the "tradition" of firing your AK or whatever into the air at a wedding and similar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leaseone Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 One guy was killed in front of BBC news at Arafats Funeral by rounds up into the air Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Someone has quoted on here, when this has come up before, how many people die from bullets falling from the sky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr smith Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 They didn't determine at what angle the fatal bullet left the gun at. LIke I tried to explain the squaddy fired the gpmg, and it "walked" upwards, increasing the angle with the recoil of every round fired, so the fatal bullet may have been vertical. Anyway, the story in the book is fact, not supposition by a tv show [/quote He was under the impression that a bullet (say .308 150 grn ) fired vertically into the air would come back down to earth with enough velocity to kill any body that it struck . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr smith Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) When I was at the Ypres museum I was told by a battlefield guide that during WW1 German machine gunners would cause casualties in the British trenches by hosing them at a high angle so that the bullets fell vertically Again not vertically/straight up.If they are fired at a high angle they will come down at a similar steep angle. Edited March 31, 2009 by mr smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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