National Identity Card

[The_Craws]

I must say I would rather they spent £5.5 billion on more police than an ID card scheme given it wont help that much with stopping terrorism etc.

[Highlander]

NO YOU WOULDN'T

 

Why wouldn't I ?

 

The point is,( rather like ID Cards), I would view those Police Officers as being a benefit, not a threat. :unsure:

A police officer a BENEFIT??? When would that be then? and I hasten to add I'm a law abiding citizen (maybe that's why I can't see it! )

[Cranfield]

A police officer a BENEFIT??? When would that be then?

 

 

 

I must say I would rather they spent £5.5 billion on more police

 

Like The-Craws and many others, I think that more Police Officers would result in less crime. :unsure:

 

We should all have at least two each.

[ernyha]

Like The-Craws and many others, I think that more Police Officers would result in less crime. :unsure:

 

We should all have at least two each.

A bit like the old advert then when your own personal bank manager lived in your wardrobe.

[Highlander]

I think you're all missin' the point. They want ID for the same reason they want to ban guns (not just firearms but shotguns as well, all types)...then they don't have to think...if you're in possession of one you're nicked. Keeps it nice and simple and means you can employ the most brain dead of people to police it. Bully boy tactics...and how did Hitler/Stalin and their like get into power. Be afraid...be very afraid.

 

Law abiding citizens have everything to fear because we stick to the law so it affects us BUT crimminals...well that's why they're crimminals. You ain't gonna stop that! Just make life harder for us legals.

 

Maybe I should have called myself 'Grumpy Ol' Man' :unsure:

[Gemini]

‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”.

 

Edmund Burke

[The_Craws]

Its like the pistol ban (and other restrictions) once its banned we wont get it back. Once they introduce the ID card we are stuck with it even when its proven useless. :unsure:

[the last engineer]

Good quote there Gemini,had a feeling that one would surface sooner or later ,

 

maybe its me ,but i think people get a little paranoid over the big brother thing ,sit and think for a minute ,how many recordable acts do you preform daily .

im not saying its right or wrong ,just that its here already .

 

every visit to the bank ....... or machine with camera cctv .

 

every vist to the gas station cctv.

 

shops cmas, mall cams, high street cams , every where you go there is a trail you leave ,,,credit card bank card so on and so on .

 

you cant get away from it ,no point in walking round with a bag over your head

 

 

as Cranfield said

 

"As I am not Paranoid, I don't care if the Government keeps me under surveillance"

 

ditto that ,im covered too :unsure:

 

Martin

[old rooster]

Think you are all missing the very valid point I raised earlier....who is going to "police" this :unsure:?. We are so tied up with petty legislation already that it has no meaning or value. In some ways I'd agree with Cranners comment re having 2 coppers with you at all times but they would be **** all use if a couple of ****** decided to nick your quad bike so where is the REAL value of ANY of it .

 

Don't kid yourself, the lunatics ARE running the asylum.

 

Just finished decanting this years sloe gin so off to do a bit of Quality Control, have a good weekend guys !!!!!!!!!

[Lurch]

‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”.

 

Edmund Burke

Actually whilst this is a quote widely attributed to Burke, there is no evidence that it actually was something the great man said.

[Cranfield]

Lurch, he probably would have said it, if he had thought of it first. :unsure:

[Gemini]

And by the same token there is no evidence to say that he didn’t.. :unsure:

G.M.

[rjimmer]

I used to think that my FAC was the best ID and character reference I could have, UNTIL DUNBLANE!

[Devilishdave]

I have carried photo card ID for the last 15 years and have never had a problem with it in fact when produced on the occasions when stopped by the police I was dismissed immediately because they new who I was and what I was about!!

 

The innocent have nothing to fear, this will encumber criminals and those living life on the fringes of what is decent though.

 

Dave

Edited May 15, 2005 by Devilishdave

[Stalker_2]

Ok, I give up. If I have nothing to fear by carrying a photo ID (I do carry one but that has no genetic info embedded) Why will the criminals be prevented from committing crimes by having one? Any one heard of a fake passport? Don’t some of our government security services use them? I suppose counterfeit money is a mere figment of my imagination as well.

 

Everything that has been said about being monitored by many means is irrelevant. This info is not collated and stored on a government data base. In fact the majority is not readily available to any security agency unless they go and find it and then it will have been destroyed if a few months have elapsed. I object to my personal details being readily available to any agency and their staff whether they need the info or not. I hope that they don’t have any criminals amongst them; because identity theft is one of the fastest growing crimes today. But of course the criminal element won’t try to infiltrate the DHSS or whatever because the new demand for fake ID’s wouldn’t make it worth their efforts…or would it?

 

Here’s a little challenge for all you ID card supporters. Send me by PM all your personal information…name address, phone numbers, bank details, car registration info. I want all your medical details as well…oh and while I’m at it I’d like a DNA profile and a recent photo. Don’t worry I have a higher security clearance than most of the staff at the agencies who will have automatic access to this…so you have nothing to fear.

 

Cheers

S_2

[old rooster]

Ok, I give up. If I have nothing to fear by carrying a photo ID

Don't think any of us here have and if I thought for one minute that it would make any REAL difference to our safety or security I'd be behind it. It will only be the "good guys" who follow slavishly on with getting cards and for the baddies it will be business as usual. What's all this about us having to "pay" for them anyway ?

 

Still say we need a return to enforcement of basic law and order, the rest would fall into place behind that.

 

On a slightly different note does anyone know why it can take up to 9 coppers to arrest 1 drunk ??. Regularly seen on the silly telly programmes where all the t*ssers are getting chucked out of the nightclubs last thing at night. Not much point in paying for loads of extra coppers if they don't toughen up and get on with the job a bit more efficiently.

[Stalker_2]

It takes around three or four police officers to subdue a drunk because that way the drunk can be controlled without injury to either party.

 

If one police officer had to do the job the casualty wards would be over run on a Friday night and the public would be up in arms.

 

S_2

[the last engineer]

Ok, I give up. If I have nothing to fear by carrying a photo ID

 

Here’s a little challenge for all you ID card supporters. Send me by PM all your personal information…name address, phone numbers, bank details, car registration info. I want all your medical details as well…oh and while I’m at it I’d like a DNA profile and a recent photo. Don’t worry I have a higher security clearance than most of the staff at the agencies who will have automatic access to this…so you have nothing to fear.

 

Cheers

S_2

it should already be availalble to you ,see if you can find it

 

i'll give you a clue ----------------> this way

 

ask any cop , gone are the days where they take the bad guy roubnd back for an attitude adjustment ............... arent they

 

 

S2 i think you're looking at this with the conspiracy theory attitude ,"they are all out to get me" .

 

if thats so then what would you propose as an alternative solution ??

 

and who would pay for that

 

 

 

Martin

[Gemini]

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedients, and by parts."-

 

Edmond Burke

 

G.M.

[old rooster]

It takes around three or four police officers to subdue a drunk because that way the drunk can be controlled without injury to either party.

 

If one police officer had to do the job the casualty wards would be over run on a Friday night and the public would be up in arms.

 

S_2

See the point in it taking more than one but isn't using 8 or 9 diluting the amount of old bill available for tackling serious crime ?. Best time for a bit of burgling must be night club chucking out.

 

The cost of collecting up these drunken bums must be astronomical particularly when one considers that most are not even charged once they've been taken down the nick. There should be a statutory removal fine for having to be removed from the streets for being drunk and disorderly.

 

Sorry to wander off topic a bit but its all law and order related. Still don't see what real value there will be to the ID card, just another expensive scam to try and fool the public that they will be safer.

[Stalker_2]

the last engineer, I’d have to deny being into conspiracy theories.

 

I just want to be presented with a valid reason why the state wants my private and personal information on a database without any reasonable suspicions about me being a criminal or threat to national security. I would suggest that the state is being paranoid…if a state can be.

 

Why do we have to have a replacement for an ID card? The whole point is that we don’t need one in the first place…let alone being charged for it to the tune of £80 and then having to carry it at all times (this will happen) and pay for information updates if we move house etc or get fined if we don’t.

 

Yes you could find the information as you said…but that would take time and effort. That kind of activity is therefore restricted to enquiries that are part of an investigation…remember the danger of having a new tool is the tendency to generate uses to justify its existence.

 

Attitude adjustments still occur today. Although it usually takes the form of “robust arresting techniques” The mental processes that lead miscreants to believe they can win by fighting a carrier full of tooled up police officers is astounding…yet strangely amusing.

 

old rooster. Some very good points…and I agree completely that they should be made to pay the policing costs…along with the clubs and pubs that serve them when they are obviously under the influence and still drinking. This can happen and does happen for the businesses, but IMHO not by any significant amount considering the takings of some of these establishments over a weekend.

 

The number of arresting officers is open to debate and I would say in defence that when they get a shout it might be just one or two idiots, but that can quickly escalate into many more the moment the police arrive on scene. Not forgetting that some citizens consider it a sport to lure the police into an ambush and administer a good kicking or worse. :<

 

Cheers

S_2

[The_Craws]

I've recieved a reply from my MP. He says he takes my concerns on board but he feels we must tackle identity in a positive way.

 

Whatever thats supposed to mean.

[Cranfield]

He says he takes my concerns on board but he feels we must tackle identity in a positive way.

 

Whatever thats supposed to mean

 

The_Craws, I think it means he wants to identify you positively.

 

stalker2, I think the Government want your personal details on file (including DNA), in case you become a criminal ,or a threat to national security.

 

You ask for valid reasons why the Government should have this information, but why should they not have it ?

What do you consider we have to fear.

Please don't mention Nazis , or Commies in your reply.

[The_Craws]

I think the Government want your personal details on file (including DNA), in case  you become a criminal ,or a threat to national security.

 

You ask for valid reasons why the Government should have this information, but why should they not have it ?

What do you consider we have to fear.

 

You say that they want to introduce an ID card and document everyones details in the country in case anyone turns into a criminal or terrorist.

 

The ID card wont be the magic wand that stops all crime and terrorists. Terrorists if they are British Citizens will be made to purchase an ID card like you and I. If they are foreign they will come into the country using false or even real passports, once they are here they wont need an ID card because they will be here posing as tourists. Nobody knows who is a terrorist including the government, they could be foreign or they could be British, they could be Muslim they could be Christian. The same applies to criminals.

 

You ask why the government shouldnt have every persons details living in Britain and Ill tell you. They dont know what the political situation is going to be 20 years down the line, they have dealt with terrorism on British soil for years without the need for this scheme - I am referring to the troubles in Northern Ireland, the data they store has the great posibility of being mis-used and can be distributed to any government department, they can introduce more details and information to taken to put on the card without commons consultation, there is no emergency facing the country, the possibility of function creep exists and no real purpose has been put forward for the card.

 

I'm fed up of terrorism being some sort of wild card when it comes to introducing new legislation, "we need it to fight terrorism".

 

I think that the Identity Card is going to be to Tony Bliar what the Poll Tax was to Margaret Thatcher. There is a hell of a lot of people out there against it and I think when its introduced thats when we will see the real opposition from the public but by that time itll be too late.

Edited May 17, 2005 by The_Craws

[Stalker_2]

Cranfield, I take it that since you have not responded with any valid reasons for allowing the government to demand my personal data you don’t have a valid argument…which has been the case all along.

 

Those that support this deserve everything they get…they probably never had to stand up and fight for the freedoms they so readily give away. One thing that most of us in this country agree on is that the vast majority of politicians are corrupt lying bast**ds. The Iraq war fiasco and the Dr Kelly abomination demonstrates how low these lying scumbags will go to further their ambition. But then god help us the Sun reading (if that’s possible) Big Brother watching cerebrally challenged morons among us allow those same people to get all our valuable personal information onto one data base on the pretext that its for our own good… and pay for it into the bargain. When asked why? …a tired old phrase of “you have nothing to fear” is trotted out….um hello…Earth calling!

 

Anyway unlike the pro ID card lot, here are some valid reasons for not having it.

 

•Because I’m a free person living in a free society. I and many others fought to maintain those freedoms…and they are not to be given away lightly if ever.

•The government are allowed to govern at society’s pleasure. They are not our lords and masters…they are the electorates servants and answer to us…not the other way around.

•Security is not enhanced by a database…in fact my security is actually weakened because it can be abused more easily.

•I do not have to prove my innocence in the UK…they have to prove my guilt and I don’t have to help them.

•I have a right to privacy and that is enshrined in law. See below.

Article 6

Right to liberty and security

Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person.

Article 7

Respect for private and family life

Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications.

Article 8

Protection of personal data

1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her.

2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access

to data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified.

3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority.

 

They of course opted out to get this through…how convenient for them.

S_2

Edited May 17, 2005 by Stalker_2