National Identity Card

[old rooster]

Cranfield, I take it that since you have not responded with any valid reasons for allowing the government to demand my personal data you don’t have a valid argument…which has been the case all along.

 

Those that support this deserve everything they get…they probably never had to stand up and fight for the freedoms they so readily give away. One thing that most of us in this country agree on is that the vast majority of politicians are corrupt lying bast**ds. The Iraq war fiasco and the Dr Kelly abomination demonstrates how low these lying scumbags will go to further their ambition. But then god help us the Sun reading (if that’s possible) Big Brother watching cerebrally challenged morons among us allow those same people to get all our valuable personal information onto one data base on the pretext that its for our own good… and pay for it into the bargain. When asked why? …a tired old phrase of “you have nothing to fear” is trotted out….um hello…Earth calling!

 

Anyway unlike the pro ID card lot, here are some valid reasons for not having it.

 

•Because I’m a free person living in a free society. I and many others fought to maintain those freedoms…and they are not to be given away lightly if ever.

•The government are allowed to govern at society’s pleasure. They are not our lords and masters…they are the electorates servants and answer to us…not the other way around.

•Security is not enhanced by a database…in fact my security is actually weakened because it can be abused more easily.

•I do not have to prove my innocence in the UK…they have to prove my guilt and I don’t have to help them.

•I have a right to privacy and that is enshrined in law. See below.

Article 6

Right to liberty and security

Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person.

Article 7

Respect for private and family life

Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications.

Article 8

Protection of personal data

1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her.

2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access

to data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified.

3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority.

 

They of course opted out to get this through…how convenient for them.

S_2

S2 ...WITHOUT DOUBT THE BEST POSTING I'VE READ ON THIS SITE !!!!!!!!!!

 

Not just because the points raised echo my own sentiments entirely but because it puts down in plain, no frills English what the TRUE situation is. If ANY government think they will get £80 out of me for a useless identity card they can think again !!. If any of the rest of you are stupid enough to pay for it then you'll only have yourself to blame when the 9 o'clock bedtime curfew is introduced. Thin end and wedge come to mind here.

 

This country needs but will never get a return to basic law and order, think about it, there is NO crime that doesn't already have adequate coverage under current law, the law just needs enforcing on the criminals and the decent, law abiding citizens want leaving alone to live decently and make their own decisions in life.

 

Let's string a few terrorists up publicly and see what effect that has if we want some serious change in how we do things, they can be joined by a few hundred rapists, murderers and kiddie fiddlers.

 

The government is now considering changes to the ownership of replica guns as some of these can be converted to fire live ammunition, so nail the ba*tards who are doing that and using them in hold ups and leave the people who want to collect them to enjoy their hobby, they shouldn't be able to get or be in possesion of live ammunition anyway, it's already against the law !!!. They are considering raising the age that you can buy a knife to 18, *** is that going to achieve ?? Air rifles will doubtless come in for scrutiny but there are already laws making it illegal to use them irresponsibly or to cause harm to others so why not implement them and dish out a few maximum sentences rather than hand slaps.

 

It's about time we took a stand to defend the hard fought for freedoms that are gradually being eaten into by each piece of nonsensical, toothless legislation.

[Cranfield]

the data they store has the great possibility of being mis-used

 

The_Craws, How ?

 

Cranfield, I take it that since you have not responded with any valid reasons for allowing the government to demand my personal data you don’t have a valid argument…which has been the case all along

 

Stalker2, just because you don't consider my reasons (already stated) as being "valid", it doesn't mean they are not valid to me.

 

Your reasons not to have identity cards, are just as nebulous, its all a matter of opinion.

 

An identity card does not affect the, "innocent until proven guilty" principle.

 

The Government will still continue to be the servants of the people.

 

Any data that amounts to your "security", (I assume you mean address, credit card number, bank account etc), is currently held on a computer somewhere and therefore is to some extent vulnerable.

 

 

Where did Article 6, 7 and 8 come from ?

I can't find which Law they are part of.

However, apart from line 3 of Article 8, I can't see how the rights as you have expressed them will be affected.

There has been some talk of an Independent Authority to oversee the use of information, if not to control it.

 

 

Despite my great age, I was born after the second World War and have never been a member of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, so have never fought for my Country and the "freedom" you mention.

Many of my relatives did fight and some gave their lives, including a Grandfather and two Uncles.

 

Having heard some of the Queen's Speech today, ID cards are definitely "on the cards".(Sorry about the pun).

[The_Craws]

The_Craws, How ?

 

There are no real legal limitations to the future scope of the ID card and register and parliament doesnt need to be consulted before making changes to its uses.

[Cranfield]

So what you are saying is, there is no problem now, but it could change.

When and if it changes, what uses might it be put to then ?

 

Assuming all this happens before China invades the West.

[The_Craws]

Your asking me, I'm cant see into the future.

[Highlander]

Cranfield with an attitude like that you've just gotta be either a civil servant or a goddam MP. Just as well your a fellow pigeon shooter or I could really take a dislike to you

 

An identity card does not affect the, "innocent until proven guilty" principle. Try telling that to victims of oppression.

 

The Government will still continue to be the servants of the people. 'scuse me, since when did this government ever serve it's people...self serving more like.

 

There has been some talk of an Independent Authority to oversee the use of information, if not to control it. Another layer of b***** bureaucrats to be paid for.

 

I'm sick to death of hearing one version or another of that old cliche...what have you got to worry about if you're a law abiding citizen. Have you tried opening a new bank account, taking out a new mortgage doing any of those everyday things that we (law abiding citizens) used to take for granted. Took me over 2 hours to get a new bank account thanks to all the new rules and regulations, all the forms you need all the different details etc and why...just so they can stop money laundering by criminals and does it? Does it H*** just makes life more difficult for the rest of us. If the government and it's agencies did a proper job there'd be no need for half the **** we already have to put up with.

[old rooster]

So just out of interest how many of you that have viewed and posted on this thread would fork out £80 for a pointless ID card ?. There is no way that I'm going to. If anyone can tell me how it will make one iota of positive difference I'd change my views but for the life of me I can't see how it will be anything other than another beurocratic waste of time.

[The_Craws]

We will have no choice but to buy one and go along to the test center to have all our details and biometrics documented.

 

If I had a choice I wouldnt be buying one.

[Stalker_2]

Cranfield the relevant law is the human rights act 1998.

 

As for my reasons being just my personal opinion…true. But I hardly think that my opinion will affect you or your privacy. On the contrary you and your ideas will affect mine.

 

You like many of the pro lobby don’t have any compelling arguments for your position…if you had you would have posted them already.

 

Some (not all) of the information we talk about is on a database somewhere true. But which one, and where? Even if a criminal stumbles upon it, it won’t contain everything about me so the damage will in all likelihood be very limited and easily put right. If on the other hand this new database gets hacked or the information stolen then may the gods help those that get picked for identity theft. The old adage of all your eggs in one basket would seem appropriate here.

 

I let your plea of omitting the Nazis as an example slide, but I will now say this. It’s wise to remember that those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat the same mistakes as our forefathers…I personally don’t need the lessons…how about you?

 

I like every other living soul on this planet (despite what some claim) cannot see into the future…we have managed to avoid the fate that has befallen so many civilised societies around the globe. We did this without an ID card/national database and a strong willed electorate who have the power to grab the establishment by the collective b*lls when the need arises. We have handed over many rights to the establishment already and this is just one more. All started in the name of security, where does it stop?

 

Cheers

S_2

 

Ps I’m still waiting for your details…you have nothing to fear.

[the last engineer]

I still stand firm in my beleif ,be it right or wrong ,the issue of identity cards is irrelevent to the fact that all here have had as much "PERSONAL INFORMATION" recorded or documented as can be other than "DNA" and im sure some have .

 

like listening to someone crying over spilt milk

 

So MHO,

1/ no i dont like the idea of everyone knowing my buisness.

2/ fact they aready do ,more than i'll ever know

3/ what the hell can i do to stop it ??

4/ do i go to jail in protest ??

5/ what hapens to my family then

 

maybe extreme, but im not as smart as all you guys who string words together longer " than wheelbarrow " and quote the laws and other smart guys .

 

Martin, just another regular guy,trying to make an honest living .

[Cranfield]

Cranfield with an attitude like that you've just gotta be either a civil servant or a goddam MP. Just as well your a fellow pigeon shooter or I could really take a dislike to you

 

Highlander, I'm not an MP, or a Civil Servant, in fact, I will be the loudest objector to paying £80 for an Identity Card.

 

But;

 

I don't like Social Security fraud.

 

I do believe in a national register for DNA.

 

I do want something that, even in any small way, makes life difficult for illegal immigrants.

 

I don't fear State oppression, as I am a realist, (or an idiot).

 

I can afford to emigrate to any Country in the World tomorrow.

 

I love a good debate.

[Catamong]

Highlander,

 

What a pity you "dislike" poor old Cranners, just because his views differ to yours.

 

Perhaps we should send him to the Gulag..??

 

His views make a lot of sense to most people in this Country.

[Gemini]

I’m just wondering how and when this wonderful system is going to be implemented.

I remember a certain “Fail-safe” computer system that was going to be introduced to deal with air traffic control. That went on for years costing gawd knows how much, and was then scrapped because they couldn’t get it to work.

And then there is the new “National firearms network” that was supposed to be up and running…….but they can’t seem to get that to work either.

So it does make one wonder how the hell they are going to process millions of these ID cards, together with all the details needed to make them work, whilst at the same time try to deal with the multitude of bogus asylum seekers that will no doubt be entering into the system at the same time.

This lot couldn’t organise a ****-up in a bloody brewery.

G.M.

[lurcherboy]

Identity cards? The sooner the better. £ 80-00 towards some level (i dont know what) of security can only be in OUR interest's, or am I on my my todd here ? People with no money/ limited fund's should be subsidised. The same goes for shooting. You want to shoot 'a' then get a licence for it. Don't care how long you have been doing it, you should be able to prove to others that you are able, safe and bloody sane.

 

I am with Cranfield. More police in VIEW will result in less grief for law abiding citizens.

 

 

 

LB

[old rooster]

We will have no choice but to buy one and go along to the test center to have all our details and biometrics documented.

 

If I had a choice I wouldnt be buying one.

So if we all refuse to comply what happens then Anarchy I hear you say but aren't we currently suffering the anarchy of ****** and other minority antisocial groups who seem to be able to break the law with impunity while offering nothing of value to society ?.

 

About time we stood up on our hind legs and said enough is enough !!!

 

Mr. Orwell must be laughing his head orf

[old rooster]

Identity cards? The sooner the better. £ 80-00 towards some level (i dont know what) of security can only be in OUR interest's, or am I on my my todd here ? People with no money/ limited fund's should be subsidised. The same goes for shooting. You want to shoot 'a' then get a licence for it. Don't care how long you have been doing it, you should be able to prove to others that you are able, safe and bloody sane.

 

 

 

 

LB

Says it all really, the "I don't know what" bit, who can actually tell me how it's going to offer "some level of security" that we don't have now ?. You are relying on a government to implement this that can't even tell you how many illegal immigrants have slipped through the net. If they can't handle that how the hell do you expect them to do anything of value with something as complex as this ID card ?

 

They can't clean up the hospitals to the point where you don't run a very real risk of contracting a fatal infection while undergoing surgery, it's like going back to the dark ages !! The TB scandal is about to become high profile and I wouldn't mind betting that Mr. Liar will be only too happy to get bumped out of No. 10.

 

Mr. Brown tongue can take over Mr. Liars job leaving the chancellors job open for some poor sap to inherit ready for the slump that would never happen under a labour government, with mortgage rates up to 10% by Christmas !!!

 

[Highlander]

Highlander, I'm not an MP, or a Civil Servant, in fact, I will be the loudest objector to paying £80 for an Identity Card.

 

But;

 

I don't like Social Security fraud. Sorry but no amount of ID Cards are gonna stop such things. The fraudsters will always find a way around it.

 

I do believe in a national register for DNA. What so we can then discount people with disabilities we don't like. Isn't that what was done in Germany to try and purify the race?

 

I do want something that, even in any small way, makes life difficult for illegal immigrants. Easy put us on the borders with night scopes.

 

I don't fear State oppression, as I am a realist, (or an idiot). We already have that. By the way what's happened to all those people who used to rely on foxhunting for a living? How much compensation did they get?

 

I can afford to emigrate to any Country in the World tomorrow. Lucky you...but which one would have you???

 

I love a good debate. Certainly get that on here, maybe we should widen it to a larger portion of the population why keep it just for pigeon fanciers?

[old rooster]

Been having a bit of a think about my postings and would like to apologise to anyone I've offended. I appreciate that this is a site for pigeon shooters to share information but I guess as the pigeon shooting is pretty poor in most areas at the moment people who like to use forums will post on other topics. I guess this is at least the "general banter" section and it is encouraging to see that others have strong opinions about the downward slide our country is facing.

 

Taking a step back from all of this I wonder if it isn't a good idea to look at proposed legislation change from a fairly simplistic view in the first instance. Lets take the ID card issue as an example.

 

Stated aim is to improve security and reduce terrorism.

 

I then look at what is proposed and ask myself do I feel that the legislation will have any true benefit. By this I'm looking for benefit to law abiding citizens and balancing that against any potentialy negative outcome from introducing the legislation. I also ask whether I feel it is another example of the "government" trying to make us feel safer when in fact we aren't.

 

In this instance the positive side is pretty limited once the scale of the project is considered; for it to have any benefit it has to encompass everbody in the country at any time, including tourists. If it doesn't and a passport is still considered acceptable then I'm already covered as are most of the people in this country.

 

I then consider the likelihood that the action required can be implemented and in this case it can't (IMHO). We are currently unable to control our borders against illegal immigration and the ingress of people with infectious diseases (TB for one !!)

 

Consider also the cost to implement the legislation and it goes far above the cost to the individual who will be expected to lob out £80 and report to a testing centre to have DNA samples taken.

 

We can't even police people driving around the country without driving licences or wandering the streets with handguns as fashion accessories, which are in effect far simpler to administer.

 

By introducing the system the assumption is that we are all potential criminals, our DNA samples will be used in police investigations. One could argue that it will help to clear us law abiding citizens of crime but I'm afraid I believe that one should still be considered innocent (as the vast majority of the public are) until proven guilty.

 

I also ask whether a similar system has been introduced successfully in any other country and my findings are that wherever it has been tried it has failed to improve security (the stated aim) It is a gross infringement of my privacy and I'm afraid I've already decided not to sign up to it on principle.

 

My working life revolves around making decisions based on facts, research and applied logic so maybe I've become too analytical in my old age. What I'm seeing happen to this country is almost unbelivable and I urge you all to think very carefully about the reality behind the facade put up by the government.

 

When I was a child I got a good slap if caught telling lies, now it appears that you get re-elected for it !!, what message does that send out to youngsters today ?. There is no integrity in our government so give away your freedoms to choose how you live with great care.

Edited May 18, 2005 by old rooster

[Cranfield]

According to todays newspaper analysis of the Queens Speech, its impossible to introduce ID cards until 2008 at the earliest and they will be (initially ?) voluntary.

 

So we can debate this for at least another 3 years.........................until something else comes along, the pigeon shooting improves, or the river fishing season starts again.

 

old rooster, its good that we can have these debates, I don't believe anyone gets offended, as long as there is no "personal" abuse.

[The_Craws]

I also ask whether a similar system has been introduced successfully in any other country and my findings are that wherever it has been tried it has failed to improve security (the stated aim)

 

Malasia, Tailand have similar card schemes to the one proposed and China is wanting to implement one as well but because they have a massive population they scrapped the biometric side.

 

They have ID cards in other European Countries but they are only card schemes, there is no database backing them up and in some of these countries there is no need to carry them on you at all times.

 

Australia, Canada and New Zealand are some of the countries that were going to introduce them but the public stopped them from implementing them. If only we were a democratic country like them.

 

My working life revolves around making decisions based on facts, research and applied logic so maybe I've become too analytical in my old age.

 

How do you think I feel, I'm only 20 and already writing letters to my MP!

 

When I was a child I got a good slap if caught telling lies, now it appears that you get re-elected for it !!

 

In Bliars Britain, your parents would get nicked for assault.

 

I am seriously considering immigrating!

[old rooster]

I am seriously considering immigrating!

I should consider emigrating instead if I was you Craws

 

Great to see some younger peoples input and to see that you've not fallen for the labour lies and deceit like so many others must have done.

 

If I wasn't staying here to look after my dear old Mum I'd be out of here like greased lightning mate !!. My Sister saw it all and married a New Zealand guy ages ago, emigrated to NZ and loves it there. Not to say they don't have problems but I'll tell you one thing, the government don't get to **** all over the public at will, if they come up with a **** idea they get it both barrels (metaphorically speaking) from the public and have to take note !!.

 

One of the problems here is that the amount of immigration we've suffered has skewed public opinion and led to some politicians playing the race or religion card to sway voters in areas densely populated with immigrants.

 

Good to hear that you are writing to your MP, I doubt it will have any real effect but at least you are kicking back against oppression of the innocent.

 

Whether the ID card is coming in in 2008, or next week is beside the point, it's the intent we need to be VERY wary of !!! Sorry Cranners old bean, just can't agree with you on this one, respect your rights to your own opinions to the last breath but I think we all need to open our eyes and see the bigger picture.

 

Out of interest can anyone think of a piece of legislation that labour have introduced that has actually improved our lives, ? from the dome onwards it's been catastrophe after catastrophe, bungle after bungle and all at our expense.

 

B*ggerd if I can !!

[longnetter]

WELL THEN BOYS, SO YOU THOUGHT 'BIG BROTHER' WAS JUST A PROGRAMME FOR THE BRAIN DEAD GENERAL PUBLIC, I.E =MR AND MRS 'STICK IN THE MUD, SET IN THEIR WAYS' AVERAGE COUPLE!

WRONG, BIG BROTHER IS OUT THERE WATCHING YOU ALL, { AND I HATE THIS EXPRESSION, BUT THIS TIME IT'S DEAD ON} 24/7!!!!

THE SCREW IS TIGHTENING IN THE SAME WAY AS GERMANY IN THE THIRTIES, HITLER ENDED UP BANNING THE OWNERSHIP OF GUNS BY THE COMMON MAN,

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

HEY, AND THIS ISN'T A JOKE BY THE WAY, SO KEEP YOUR EAR TO THE GROUND AND LISTEN TO THE SCREW BEING TIGHTENED ONE MORE TURN!

ENJOY WHILST YOU CAN,

LONGNETTER

:thumbs: :( :( :(

Edited May 21, 2005 by longnetter