Bazooka Joe Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Here we go, same old ***** about BASC making money out of DSC 1 - NO WE DO NOT Come on David, let's not go down that route again, next you'll be tell PW that your doing it at a loss...!!! I think that it is the responsibility of B.A.S.C. to be seen to do something about it for the membership . B.A.S.C. knows its wrong for the constabulary's to insist on compulsory testing before issuing a F.A.C. and its only time before somebody offers a course for basic fox lamping and then every body will have to take another compulsory test before you can lamp foxes . Hanser has a valid point here, are BASC going to confront this issue head on..?? BJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Come on David, let's not go down that route again, next you'll be tell PW that your doing it at a loss...!!! Hanser has a valid point here, are BASC going to confront this issue head on..?? BJ. Cant see any shooting organisation who offer insurance trying to hard to fight this. More trained shooters should cut down on insurance claims, but like the driving and any other pastime that offers tests/licenses wont stop accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I think there should be a compulsory test for newbies to shoot firearms, no matter what is being shot. Just a basic accuracy and safety test if no mentor is available to them. Nothing too complicated but enough to show a new shooter the potential of what he/she is holding and to make sure kills will be humane. A test just to shoot Deer is pointless unless it's something you want to do for the experience. I'd like to do the DSC, not because I don't feel confident with my shooting but because there's always something new to learn and I'm interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 and just because you have a bit of paper does not mean you are doing it "right" I know someone who has a dsc1 (so do I for that matter) who has shot ONE yes uno ONE deer yet it is on his portfolio for dsc2!!! now in theory that means he could achieve dsc2 by shooting another two deer and then he is a credible witness due to his "experience" ***! dsc1/ 2 and or mentoring is all about money and or control nothing more more nothing less and the BDS and bsac know that well in fact it suits them down to the ground? Its part of the lets keep the oiks away from deer? and of course plod knows that but hey he does not want you to have a .240 or above? that does not fit in with the lets control them ideology. Also you only have to look at deer numbers to prove that the BDS and dsc1/2 does nothing yes NOTHING for deer control, says I as I doff the cap and offer the ahem customary tip to the stalker who has had you sat in chair for 8 hours.fer **** all Cheers KW this could be the reason why some get the 243 for fox with no restrictions, but need a dsc1 or mentor for deer. why the firearms department worry over this is anyone's guess as the only thing that need concern them is a safe shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) All examination based testing is flawed. Very much like the range competancy certificate they now insist upon at Bisley - provided you don't blow (a.) your feet off (b.) the feet belonging to the bloke next to you off, then you get your certificate. Once you have that certificate you can then pick up oooh say a .308 and take a rifle shot at a passing pigeon should you so desire. The examination / certificate is nothing more than a bit of paper and is probably more founded in things to do with insurance, professional buck passing and people not being held responsible / liable. Look at the driving license - would you rather be driven by someone who has driven on the roads full time for 3 years or by someone who has passed their test for 4 years? Edited July 20, 2009 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 There is nothing wrong with the DSC1 course and there is nothing wrong with the B.A.S.C. organising these courses , but what is a contentious issue with these courses , in my opinion is that the constabularys are making it compulsory for the issue of a F.A.C. this is wrong . If B.A.S.C. do not come out against this one then they will unwittingly become part of the hidden agenda of severlly restricting the the numbers of centre fire rifles to sportsman . Just another small issue , are there any statistics out there with reff to accidents to people and or property caused by wayward bullets while some body is out stalking . I know of none , but there must be hundreds of incidents to warrent the compulsory testing of stalkers . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Like I say - conditions on certificates, provided they are reasonable, cannot be challenged in law, so exactly what do you expect BASC to do? Challenge the unchallengeable – great use of member’s money that would be. Secondly, land owners will increasingly need to mitigate their liability and DSC 1 certainly fits that bill. Finally, in most cases the police will typically ask for DSC1 or mentoring if the applicant cannot satisfy them that the are an experienced stalker. Many will agree that novices really do need some training before they go shooting live quarry, after all we aim for a quick clean kill do we not? So practice on targets first etc. If you already know all about deer stalking etc you do not need to do the course at all, just the assessment for a fraction of the cost. Said before as you know BASC aims to deliver DSC1 at cost. Yes inconsistency is a ****** is it not- 243 for fox OK same chap same land etc 243 for deer ..DSC1. Logic to this – you tell me! Make too much of a fuss about this and I guess one risk is that the police to say OK – you need a test / course to shot a fox- want this Like hell! But if any of you are in this situation, and are BASC members and want us to make a fuss about it- just give the BASC firearms department a call. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Like I say - conditions on certificates, provided they are reasonable, cannot be challenged in law, so exactly what do you expect BASC to do? Challenge the unchallengeable – great use of member’s money that would be. Secondly, land owners will increasingly need to mitigate their liability and DSC 1 certainly fits that bill. Finally, in most cases the police will typically ask for DSC1 or mentoring if the applicant cannot satisfy them that the are an experienced stalker. Many will agree that novices really do need some training before they go shooting live quarry, after all we aim for a quick clean kill do we not? So practice on targets first etc. If you already know all about deer stalking etc you do not need to do the course at all, just the assessment for a fraction of the cost. Said before as you know BASC aims to deliver DSC1 at cost. Yes inconsistency is a ****** is it not- 243 for fox OK same chap same land etc 243 for deer ..DSC1. Logic to this – you tell me! Make too much of a fuss about this and I guess one risk is that the police to say OK – you need a test / course to shot a fox- want this Like hell! But if any of you are in this situation, and are BASC members and want us to make a fuss about it- just give the BASC firearms department a call. David David , B.A.S.C. should be fighting to stop these restrictive conditions being put onto certificates in the first place . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 they make no sense though FEO's have been educated that deer are special and that you need special training to shoot them. Its got nothing to do with the firearms in their eyes otherwise why can you get a centrefire for fox no mentor no nothing even occasionally on a first grant and yet mention deer and it all gets complicated. Theres no difference to shooting a fox a clean kill should still be the vital bit and if anything because you can shoot foxes in the dark I would suggest theres more chances of accidents while fox shooting than deer. At least the mentoring condition is still accepted as acceptable, i can forsee a time when you'll only be able to get shooting insurance once you have these bits of paper as the insurance issue keeps being bandied about as part of the justification for the DSC existing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 All examination based testing is flawed. Very much like the range competancy certificate they now insist upon at Bisley - provided you don't blow (a.) your feet off (b.) the feet belonging to the bloke next to you off, then you get your certificate. Once you have that certificate you can then pick up oooh say a .308 and take a rifle shot at a passing pigeon should you so desire. The examination / certificate is nothing more than a bit of paper and is probably more founded in things to do with insurance, professional buck passing and people not being held responsible / liable. Look at the driving license - would you rather be driven by someone who has driven on the roads full time for 3 years or by someone who has passed their test for 4 years? I have to say I agree but DSC is what we have to build on. Yes exam based testing is flawed, probably including the bar, but one can't practise law/ drive a car, etc etc without having passed these exams. Re the driving thing, how come then a HGV drivers car insurance costs more than most other professions, particularly as he will probably only drive his own car once a week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 how come then a HGV drivers car insurance costs more than most other professions, particularly as he will probably only drive his own car once a week? The underwriters have probably followed one or two of you down the Mway. :good: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 how come then a HGV drivers car insurance costs more than most other professions, particularly as he will probably only drive his own car once a week? The underwriters have probably followed one or two of you down the Mway. :good: Can't see an underwriter driving at 53 mph in his company car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesLeic Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) David , B.A.S.C. should be fighting to stop these restrictive conditions being put onto certificates in the first place .Harnser . Harnser, just a thought but the only way i can see a challenge succeeding would be if a person had .243 already for fox and put in for a variation for deer to be added and was then told they needed a mentor or DSC....the reason for this is under those circumstances the court may deem the condition to be unreasonable since the firearms unit has already let the shooter have the rifle unaccompained at that point so arguements of increased danger would be mute especially if they already had it for fox lamping. If a potential test case is brought forward i would surgest BASC look into this as i beleive they would be advised the case would be likely winable and would certainly enable people to challenge the belief that all shooters should have it - the happy medium would be to give (the fac) with mentoring if experience is in doubt, otherwise grant without the restriction. Edited July 20, 2009 by JamesLeic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Harnser, just a thought but the only way i can see a challenge succeeding would be if a person had .243 already for fox and put in for a variation for deer to be added and was then told they needed a mentor or DSC....the reason for this is under those circumstances the court may deem the condition to be unreasonable since the firearms unit has already let the shooter have the rifle unaccompained at that point so arguements of increased danger would be mute especially if they already had it for fox lamping. If a potential test case is brought forward i would surgest BASC look into this as i beleive they would be advised the case would be likely winable and would certainly enable people to challenge the belief that all shooters should have it - the happy medium would be to give (the fac) with mentoring if experience is in doubt, otherwise grant without the restriction. James ,what you say makes sense and any body in that situation would proberbly win the day in court . My main contention about this testing and mentoring is that it is being forced onto shooters without any legislation in the law to make it compulsory . The whole thing stinks . Just more errosion of our human rights , mind you i dont thick you have any human rights if you work and are british and dont have a criminal record . Harnser . Edited July 20, 2009 by Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotland rifles Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 If you are having issues with your FLD about grant or renewal then please contact the BASC firearms team if you are a BASC member David I have got issues with this condition being force on myself so i did contact BASC over 3 months ago, and not heard anything from BASC but they still took my cash this month for my membership, i have had help from another shooting organisation SACS and considering i have called the local basc rep 2 times now but still nothing. seems i have sent the funds to the wrong people. bob. i will let you all know how i get on as i am just this week sending in my renewal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Who in the firearms team did you speak to? PM me your name and number and I iwll chase it for you. Next time don't leave it 12 weeks - if you are not happy call me David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 have had help from another shooting organisation SACS and considering i have called the local basc rep 2 times now but still nothing. seems i have sent the funds to the wrong people They are very helpful and only having a small number of members compared to some you do get looked after very well. Anyone at all having problems with there FLD should think about joining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotland rifles Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Who in the firearms team did you speak to? PM me your name and number and I will chase it for you. Next time don't leave it 12 weeks - if you are not happy call me David hi David. pm sent. i sent them an e-mail with the full details and called to confirm it had arrived and that it went to the correct representative as my post code is in Hampshire but i come under wiltshire for my licencing, that done i call a further 2 times, left details ( with a real person . not a machine ) for them to call me back, that done i expected to be consulted at some point, i have now completed my renewal paperwork and it will be sent as soon as i get the signatures on the photos, expiry date is the 29/09/09, i will have all my permission slips to hand, with 2 letters from my mentors reporting on my stalking trips etc. i am doing this as the last time i tried to speak to the head lady over the phone about my feelings on this mandatory requirement it was to no avail, and i was treated like a 16 year old who was just asking for his first certificate, THIS BIT IS CONTINUED IN THE pm. Bob. Edited July 21, 2009 by scotland rifles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 hi David. pm sent. i sent them an e-mail with the full details and called to confirm it had arrived and that it went to the correct representative as my post code is in Hampshire but i come under wiltshire for my licencing, that done i call a further 2 times, left details ( with a real person . not a machine ) for them to call me back, that done i expected to be consulted at some point, i have now completed my renewal paperwork and it will be sent as soon as i get the signatures on the photos, expiry date is the 29/09/09, i will have all my permission slips to hand, with 2 letters from my mentors reporting on my stalking trips etc. i am doing this as the last time i tried to speak to the head lady over the phone about my feelings on this mandatory requirement it was to no avail, and i was treated like a 16 year old who was just asking for his first certificate, THIS BIT IS CONTINUED IN THE pm. Bob. there is some consistency between some FLD,S then. hope you get this sorted B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Nice one Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotland rifles Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 thank you David. your help and advice was well founded, a true gent to the letter. Jamie ( my local BASC REPRASETATIVE) called me the other night and has given me hope for the meeting with the FLO. many thanks. bob. Mark IM mentally 17 I'll have you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotland rifles Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 just a heads up lads, Thanks to David. BASC have been in contact and informed me that they are aware of the issues and have it in hand, they also gave me a load of help in what to do. ask and what to say when the visit takes place for the renewal. here's hoping it all pays off. bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 just a heads up lads, Thanks to David. BASC have been in contact and informed me that they are aware of the issues and have it in hand, they also gave me a load of help in what to do. ask and what to say when the visit takes place for the renewal. here's hoping it all pays off. bob. Good luck with it mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotland rifles Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Ace! Let me know how I can get the money to you and, if you want to meet up beforehand, let me know where and when. Wookie. Good luck with it mate. thanks Mark bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotland rifles Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 well lads. even with the help of BASC i still had to do the following, The head FEO ( a Mrs) wanted the following more from me. 1, land with me named as having permission and what calibres i was cleared to use and what i was shooting, .22 lr and 17 hmr, they have all my permission slips for these already. 2, named land that must be cleared for the shooting of fox and deer and as above. this has been sent with 2 letters from my mentors. 3, my signatory for my sgc stated he was retired, but she wanted to know what he was before he retired, what has that got to do with them finally i got a nice letter from my mentor and i know have 948 acres of land cleared for full bore rifles and i have been named to control deer fox and all ground game. so all i have to do now is see what colour she wants me to dye my hair, etc etc before i get it back, i just hope the mentoring bit has gone, i don't mind it not being open but to have a mentor with me every time i shoot my .243 is beyond a joke. bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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